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Post by newsteadst3 on Aug 28, 2014 22:12:09 GMT
Any one remember "local lad". Matthew Bullock???? No? We'll keep your big ideas down for the time being, he's only 16 I remember Bullock. I've only seen Ollie Shenton play for around twenty minutes but I confidently say that he's in a completely different class to Bullock. And Goodfellow scored on his debut
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Post by CalgaryPotter on Aug 29, 2014 5:39:45 GMT
Don't suppose you know what his old man's name is do you? I grew up in Blythe and knew a Grant Shenton back in the day. I grew up in forsbook and knew who grant Shenton was back in the day by face but not to talk to,didn't he have a brother?100% sure they were from caverswall.Anyway I was talking to a mate at work this morning who knew quite alot about his family and he told me his dad's name is Greg.We probably know each other,I left Blythe high in 86. Yes, Grant was from Caverswall & I left in 87 so I'd be very surprised if we don't know each other.
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Aug 29, 2014 6:51:04 GMT
I remember Bullock. I've only seen Ollie Shenton play for around twenty minutes but I confidently say that he's in a completely different class to Bullock. And Goodfellow scored on his debut Christ, who pissed in your milkshake?
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raven
Academy Starlet
Posts: 118
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Post by raven on Aug 29, 2014 7:29:55 GMT
Youngest debutant for us was Peter Bullock
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Post by magwitch on Aug 29, 2014 10:46:30 GMT
Peter Bullock did play for Stoke at the age of 16 and not just for a 10 minute substitute appearance. There were no substitutes in those days. It is not a sensible thing to do to draw any comparisons between Shenton and Bullock. Not only are the two players separated by more than 50 years, but Bullock played as a centre forward and Shentom box to box midfielder. At 16 Bullock looked like a future star, but lost his way largely due to a broken leg sustained against Liverpool in a second division match at the Victoria Ground in 1959. The Liverpool player involved was their leftback, Ronnie Moran who was 100% to blame for the injury. Stoke were attacking the Stoke End and Bullock was running towards the Liverpool goal on the right side of the penalty area. He was just about to go past Moran with a clear run to goal when he was deliberately hacked down with no attempt to play the ball. It was much worse than Shawcross's tackle that caused so much controversy a few years back. These days Moran would have been sent off.
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Post by JoeinOz on Aug 29, 2014 10:55:17 GMT
It's just good a youth player has got a first team appearance under his belt. This will encourage the other ones and show them if they apply themselves they will get a chance.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2014 10:59:32 GMT
Peter Bullock did play for Stoke at the age of 16 and not just for a 10 minute substitute appearance. There were no substitutes in those days. It is not a sensible thing to do to draw any comparisons between Shenton and Bullock. Not only are the two players separated by more than 50 years, but Bullock played as a centre forward and Shentom box to box midfielder. At 16 Bullock looked like a future star, but lost his way largely due to a broken leg sustained against Liverpool in a second division match at the Victoria Ground in 1959. The Liverpool player involved was their leftback, Ronnie Moran who was 100% to blame for the injury. Stoke were attacking the Stoke End and Bullock was running towards the Liverpool goal on the right side of the penalty area. He was just about to go past Moran with a clear run to goal when he was deliberately hacked down with no attempt to play the ball. It was much worse than Shawcross's tackle that caused so much controversy a few years back. These days Moran would have been sent off. Great insight magwitch. I take it you were there?
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Post by staffordshireknot on Aug 29, 2014 11:28:03 GMT
Had a Good last 15 minutes. Was impressed I'd have him on bench on Saturday he deserves it. Shows up a few seasoned pro's.
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Post by staffordshireknot on Aug 29, 2014 11:31:31 GMT
I thought he looked astonishingly assured for a 16 year-old. He was positive in possession, showed a good touch, and apart from one stray pass he made the right decision every time he got the ball. Perhaps another 12 months as part of our youth set-up then a loan to League Two to get him used to being kicked will be the best way forward now. There's a long road ahead of him, but it's great to see the academy produce someone with such promise. He dosen't need to go anywhere. He needs to be brought into 1st team squad and be put on bench. He will be wasted going elsewhere now and it will ruin him. Develop him in our squad like Everton did with Rooney and like Liverpool with Owen and Fowler. Give him the odd 10 or 15 mins every few games and let him play cup games.
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Post by stokiejoe on Aug 29, 2014 11:38:00 GMT
I thought he looked astonishingly assured for a 16 year-old. He was positive in possession, showed a good touch, and apart from one stray pass he made the right decision every time he got the ball. Perhaps another 12 months as part of our youth set-up then a loan to League Two to get him used to being kicked will be the best way forward now. There's a long road ahead of him, but it's great to see the academy produce someone with such promise. He dosen't need to go anywhere. He needs to be brought into 1st team squad and be put on bench. He will be wasted going elsewhere now and it will ruin him. Develop him in our squad like Everton did with Rooney and like Liverpool with Owen and Fowler. Give him the odd 10 or 15 mins every few games and let him play cup games. Completely agree, our young players miss out on playing in front of a crowd, unlike on the continent. Would be a double whammy as I'm sure it would attract other quality youngsters, no reason why a 17 year old shouldn't be a regular. We ought to control his progress not risk others doing it wrongly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 11:49:07 GMT
He dosen't need to go anywhere. He needs to be brought into 1st team squad and be put on bench. He will be wasted going elsewhere now and it will ruin him. Develop him in our squad like Everton did with Rooney and like Liverpool with Owen and Fowler. Give him the odd 10 or 15 mins every few games and let him play cup games. Completely agree, our young players miss out on playing in front of a crowd, unlike on the continent. Would be a double whammy as I'm sure it would attract other quality youngsters, no reason why a 17 year old shouldn't be a regular. We ought to control his progress not risk others doing it wrongly. In place of who though? So, Rooney scored on his Everton debut in a match vs Arsenal, we have all seen the goal and can all see why he wasn't ignored after that. Owen and Fowler were incredible talents at a young age and again, forced the manager's hand. For example, Owen, in the England U16's had scored 16 goals in 11 games, which kind of puts him in a different bracket. It also helps that these players were playing for teams where, with 20 mins to go, had often won the game, making it far easier for the coach to justify a spot on the bench for a youngster. If I needed to hold on to a win, I'd rather know Whelan was there, if we needed to get a goal, i'd rather rely on Adam. This lad looks good, but a loan spell for a few months and then one in the championship would do him far more good than sitting on a bench and getting 10 minutes every 10 games, (when we have actually secured the points to take a risk). For every Owen you also have a Beckham, who did go on loan, if only for a short spell to gain experience etc
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Post by ti on Aug 29, 2014 11:57:05 GMT
Completely agree, our young players miss out on playing in front of a crowd, unlike on the continent. Would be a double whammy as I'm sure it would attract other quality youngsters, no reason why a 17 year old shouldn't be a regular. We ought to control his progress not risk others doing it wrongly. In place of who though? So, Rooney scored on his Everton debut in a match vs Arsenal, we have all seen the goal and can all see why he wasn't ignored after that. Owen and Fowler were incredible talents at a young age and again, forced the manager's hand. For example, Owen, in the England U16's had scored 16 goals in 11 games, which kind of puts him in a different bracket. It also helps that these players were playing for teams where, with 20 mins to go, had often won the game, making it far easier for the coach to justify a spot on the bench for a youngster. If I needed to hold on to a win, I'd rather know Whelan was there, if we needed to get a goal, i'd rather rely on Adam. This lad looks good, but a loan spell for a few months and then one in the championship would do him far more good than sitting on a bench and getting 10 minutes every 10 games, (when we have actually secured the points to take a risk). For every Owen you also have a Beckham, who did go on loan, if only for a short spell to gain experience etc I'd like to see him on the bench against some of the 'weaker' teams in the league. If we're two goals to the good I think we should continue to bring him on for 10 mins or so. If young players are a decent prospect send them out on loan. Clearly the management like Shenton so he's worth accomodating into the side. With experience he might be able to earn a place on the bench more regularly and then a place coming on with 30mins to go where appropriate. Eventually starting the odd game in cups etc. I think it's too easy to send young players out on loan and when they don't make the grade think 'oh well, they were never good enough'. I think we forget how intimidating that can be for kids. Of course some will take it in their stride but others won't. I can't see a league 1 club struggling to avoid relegation being particularly forgiving of a kiddie who costs them a point etc whereas if they're given an opportunity to play commpetitive football in a 'safe' environment and then gain confidence in the first team I reckon it's a much better way of doing it. It also avoids the huge pressure of a kid who comes back from loan then is expected to break into the first team and hit the ground running under all the pressure that goes along with that.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 29, 2014 12:13:54 GMT
The lad has played 1 U-21 game, he's still got plenty to learn at that level and playing in the cup games I'd imagine. I'm not saying he shouldn't be on the bench but who do you leave out? It's a big call. I'd actually start him against Sunderland. Lets see where he is in terms of the level we play at and go from there.
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Post by stokiejoe on Aug 29, 2014 12:14:06 GMT
In place of who though? So, Rooney scored on his Everton debut in a match vs Arsenal, we have all seen the goal and can all see why he wasn't ignored after that. Owen and Fowler were incredible talents at a young age and again, forced the manager's hand. For example, Owen, in the England U16's had scored 16 goals in 11 games, which kind of puts him in a different bracket. It also helps that these players were playing for teams where, with 20 mins to go, had often won the game, making it far easier for the coach to justify a spot on the bench for a youngster. If I needed to hold on to a win, I'd rather know Whelan was there, if we needed to get a goal, i'd rather rely on Adam. This lad looks good, but a loan spell for a few months and then one in the championship would do him far more good than sitting on a bench and getting 10 minutes every 10 games, (when we have actually secured the points to take a risk). For every Owen you also have a Beckham, who did go on loan, if only for a short spell to gain experience etc I'd like to see him on the bench against some of the 'weaker' teams in the league. If we're two goals to the good I think we should continue to bring him on for 10 mins or so. If young players are a decent prospect send them out on loan. Clearly the management like Shenton so he's worth accomodating into the side. With experience he might be able to earn a place on the bench more regularly and then a place coming on with 30mins to go where appropriate. Eventually starting the odd game in cups etc. I think it's too easy to send young players out on loan and when they don't make the grade think 'oh well, they were never good enough'. I think we forget how intimidating that can be for kids. Of course some will take it in their stride but others won't. I can't see a league 1 club struggling to avoid relegation being particularly forgiving of a kiddie who costs them a point etc whereas if they're given an opportunity to play commpetitive football in a 'safe' environment and then gain confidence in the first team I reckon it's a much better way of doing it. It also avoids the huge pressure of a kid who comes back from loan then is expected to break into the first team and hit the ground running under all the pressure that goes along with that. Beat me to it, like you I never thought of putting him on the bench every game but in selected ones. He is our player and we should develop him and judge his progress. No point in having an Academy otherwise, just buy in players when we need them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 12:37:41 GMT
I'd like to see him on the bench against some of the 'weaker' teams in the league. If we're two goals to the good I think we should continue to bring him on for 10 mins or so. If young players are a decent prospect send them out on loan. Clearly the management like Shenton so he's worth accomodating into the side. With experience he might be able to earn a place on the bench more regularly and then a place coming on with 30mins to go where appropriate. Eventually starting the odd game in cups etc. I think it's too easy to send young players out on loan and when they don't make the grade think 'oh well, they were never good enough'. I think we forget how intimidating that can be for kids. Of course some will take it in their stride but others won't. I can't see a league 1 club struggling to avoid relegation being particularly forgiving of a kiddie who costs them a point etc whereas if they're given an opportunity to play commpetitive football in a 'safe' environment and then gain confidence in the first team I reckon it's a much better way of doing it. It also avoids the huge pressure of a kid who comes back from loan then is expected to break into the first team and hit the ground running under all the pressure that goes along with that. Beat me to it, like you I never thought of putting him on the bench every game but in selected ones. He is our player and we should develop him and judge his progress. No point in having an Academy otherwise, just buy in players when we need them. But even in 'selected games' when are we ever 2 goals to the good. In all likelihood he would get about 10 minutes for about 5/6 games in a season. As for putting them in to a lower league team, surely it's the management's job to find a team where he will progress i.e not get completely condemned for every error. And making those errors are vital for a player at a young age. If they don't have the character to bounce back, they wouldn't make it in the Prem anyways. Surely, frequent game time, even at a lower level, with give him more opportunities than simply being in the U21's for the majority of the season?
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Post by slother on Aug 29, 2014 12:48:27 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 29, 2014 12:49:37 GMT
Beat me to it, like you I never thought of putting him on the bench every game but in selected ones. He is our player and we should develop him and judge his progress. No point in having an Academy otherwise, just buy in players when we need them. But even in 'selected games' when are we ever 2 goals to the good. In all likelihood he would get about 10 minutes for about 5/6 games in a season. As for putting them in to a lower league team, surely it's the management's job to find a team where he will progress i.e not get completely condemned for every error. And making those errors are vital for a player at a young age. If they don't have the character to bounce back, they wouldn't make it in the Prem anyways. Surely, frequent game time, even at a lower level, with give him more opportunities than simply being in the U21's for the majority of the season? I just think he's that young that for now, U-21 games, training with the first team and cup games is enough. See how he goes until the next window and reassess from there. If an offer came in for him on loan it would have to be seriously considered though.
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Post by unknown182 on Aug 29, 2014 13:02:14 GMT
If he's chosen for the bench it would mean a big player will be missing out. Unless a couple are injured or suspended at some stage of the season. He should definitely be involved in cup games though.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 29, 2014 13:58:41 GMT
Playing for the 21s this afternoon.
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Post by Clem Fandango on Aug 29, 2014 14:24:15 GMT
But even in 'selected games' when are we ever 2 goals to the good. In all likelihood he would get about 10 minutes for about 5/6 games in a season. As for putting them in to a lower league team, surely it's the management's job to find a team where he will progress i.e not get completely condemned for every error. And making those errors are vital for a player at a young age. If they don't have the character to bounce back, they wouldn't make it in the Prem anyways. Surely, frequent game time, even at a lower level, with give him more opportunities than simply being in the U21's for the majority of the season? I just think he's that young that for now, U-21 games, training with the first team and cup games is enough. See how he goes until the next window and reassess from there. If an offer came in for him on loan it would have to be seriously considered though. Also doesn't Owen blame his injury issues on playing too much as a youngster? I know they're different sorts of players and Owen's game was largely based on a explosive speed which puts pressure on the muscles and tendons but still training and games will damage muscles and joints. Shenton's development is a marathon not a sprint it should be enough for a 16 year old to be playing for the U-21s with maybe the odd first team cameo for now. Maybe next season it might be good to get him some regular football but even then it could be 1 season too soon. I think it'll be interesting to see how the careers of the southampton lads pan out.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 29, 2014 14:35:01 GMT
I just think he's that young that for now, U-21 games, training with the first team and cup games is enough. See how he goes until the next window and reassess from there. If an offer came in for him on loan it would have to be seriously considered though. Also doesn't Owen blame his injury issues on playing too much as a youngster? I know they're different sorts of players and Owen's game was largely based on a explosive speed which puts pressure on the muscles and tendons but still training and games will damage muscles and joints. Shenton's development is a marathon not a sprint it should be enough for a 16 year old to be playing for the U-21s with maybe the odd first team cameo for now. Maybe next season it might be good to get him some regular football but even then it could be 1 season too soon. I think it'll be interesting to see how the careers of the southampton lads pan out. He does yeah. I just don't see the rush to be honest, he's miles ahead in his development as it is and it needs to be nurtured and not rushed. I'd happily start him against Sunderland, even though that probably is too much. But what a chance to see if he can do it. And then back to the 21's. It's got to be managed well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 14:55:39 GMT
I have just read that Bowen and all the back room staff think a lot of this lad. Let's hope that somewhere down the line, he makes a first class Stoke City player. I think I've read that all his family are Stoke fans, so hopefully he will fill his potential for us, and not join one of the so called big clubs. Good luck to him, and I sincerely hope that his personal ambitions come to fruition!
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 29, 2014 15:04:16 GMT
And Goodfellow scored on his debut Christ, who pissed in your milkshake? He has a point, the lad looked decent but there's a loooooong way to go before we should be creaming ourselves over having a local lad playing regularly in the first team.
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Aug 29, 2014 15:51:13 GMT
Christ, who pissed in your milkshake? He has a point, the lad looked decent but there's a loooooong way to go before we should be creaming ourselves over having a local lad playing regularly in the first team. There's no need to be a miserable shitter though. It's been a while since we had a promising home grown lad, let people enjoy it.
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Post by newsteadst3 on Aug 31, 2014 15:13:23 GMT
Chauncey Billups, above here trying have a moan at my post ha ha, stick to NBA lad!
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