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Post by britsabroad on Jul 20, 2014 1:36:02 GMT
An old girlfriend forced me to listen to them when we were about 18 and they made my ears bleed they were that bad. Now im a bit older I like a few of their songs. Still think most of it is just a racket though.
Theyre abit like Oasis I reckon. If theyre from your time you think theyre the brilliant, but everyone else thinks theyre shit.
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jul 20, 2014 5:29:03 GMT
Hairdresser on fire ...all around Sloane Square.
Mostly monumental tunes and ************** knows it. That said, if anyone is in doubt about Mozzer's twattishness, read his autobiography.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 20, 2014 8:00:05 GMT
As one or two people have noted, it's a matter of taste and opinion.
1. The lyrics are clever/witty/enlightening. Only compared with the unalloyed drivel that accompanies nearly all other pop music. And only then if you think the pretentious introspective ramblings of a teenager are clever/witty/enlightening. In general they are only insightful to the teenager in question and his dreary friends. 2. The litmus test for any pop song is a decent tune. That is a very difficult bar to clear, so they are not alone - but they routinely fail that test 3. Morrisey doesn't really sing, and the lyrics don't scan. He essentially talks the dreary and banal words and s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-s (or concertinas) them over the random and discordant backing track 4. I am perfectly prepared to believe that Marr is an accomplished and influential guitarist 5. I doubt many people who had a girlfriend would have been attracted to the Smiths' music.
Try these insightful lyrics over "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now":
"The telly's en panne down so I put Marconi on But the music that came out reminded me of my monochrome existence And then the radio died So I picked up Gabriel Garcia Marquez. From the spiteful public library on the dirty side of town. Every twelfth page (not eleventh) had been ripped out Instead I went to bed And I slept till a dismal dawn Dreaming dolefully of Dill the Dog, and droogs. And maybe a deal with Decca".
But you pays your money...
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Post by maninasuitcase on Jul 20, 2014 9:16:12 GMT
The only 2 Smiths songs I ever liked They are indeed outstanding tracks Manina. I am surprised that one or two more of their tunes havn't managed to earworm their way into your brain. Not even... 'Hand in Glove' 'Jeanne' {granted a Billy Bragg track.} 'Please Let Me Get What I Want' 'Queen is Dead' 'Cemetry Gates' 'Girlfriend in a Coma' 'The Death of a Disco Dancer' 'Paint a Vulgar Picture' No? They are good tracks admittedly. But the melodies and lyrics of the 2 afore mentioned always get me cranking up the volume. That bass line in barbarism begins at home is awesome.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 20, 2014 9:25:26 GMT
Many may not agree, but i also think if Ian Curtis hadn't hung himself hardly anyone would have ever heard of The Smiths.
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Post by ruts66 on Jul 20, 2014 10:59:25 GMT
The roughest gig I ever went to was at The Lyceum Ballroom (Strand, WC2), Christmas '82/83 maybe?
Anti Nowhere League, Adicts, King Kurt and Gary Glitter are the bands I can remember but there were others and the fighting kicked off outside before a note was played. There was snow on the ground (December 23rd) and the punks were pelting the glitter boys with snow balls waiting for the doors to open. It was a bit like the film, Warriors, with distinctly different gangs all thrown together - punks, glitters, psychobillys, droogs (Adicts 'Clockwork Orange' boot boys).
Once inside, it was like a scene from a wild west saloon bar from start to finish. The gig was stopped 3 times so that security/police could restore some sort of order but it went off again as soon as the music resumed.
King Kurt had a mental following who had bags of flour, eggs, (even a rabbit's head !!!) and kicked off a massive food/beer fight (par for the course at their gigs, apparently). Everyone up the front looked like they'd been tarred and feathered and were covered in blood - the roughest moshing I have ever witnessed.
It was a truly unforgettable gig and the music was immense - ANL closed out with 'Woman' and 'Streets of London' before trashing their equipment and the stage, "Merry Christmas, you cunts..."
The only shitter (for me) was some twat nicked my leather jacket which at 16/17 was my most treasured possession and I nearly froze to death walking back across Waterloo Bridge to the station in just a sweat-sodden Vive Le Rock t-shirt.
Sorry to get off topic but I've gone all nostalgic and misty-eyed again... :-)
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 20, 2014 14:00:32 GMT
An old girlfriend forced me to listen to them when we were about 18 and they made my ears bleed they were that bad. Now im a bit older I like a few of their songs. Still think most of it is just a racket though. Theyre abit like Oasis I reckon. If theyre from your time you think theyre the brilliant, but everyone else thinks theyre shit.I think that's utter bollocks. Liking The Smiths isn't about when you were born. There are loads of people who like them who were not even swimming around in their dad's bollocks when The Queen is Dead came out. It's purely a matter of personal taste whether you like their songs or not, but anyone who knows even the first thing about music would recognise the influence they've had on indie music as a whole.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 20, 2014 14:04:26 GMT
Many may not agree, but i also think if Ian Curtis hadn't hung himself hardly anyone would have ever heard of The Smiths. How did that affect The Smiths exactly?
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 20, 2014 14:13:26 GMT
Denis and Tommy
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 20, 2014 14:51:55 GMT
Many may not agree, but i also think if Ian Curtis hadn't hung himself hardly anyone would have ever heard of The Smiths. How did that affect The Smiths exactly? Joy Division ticked all the same boxes that made The Smiths, but did them first and arguably better.
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Post by Trouserdog on Jul 20, 2014 14:59:32 GMT
How did that affect The Smiths exactly? Joy Division ticked all the same boxes that made The Smiths, but did them first and arguably better. Joy Division were undoubtedly a huge influence on The Cure, the Banshees,the Chameleons and much later the likes of Interpol, Editors etc. The Smiths were swimming in very different waters. They sounded nothing like Joy Division, lyrically or musically.
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Post by Beardy200 on Jul 20, 2014 15:25:15 GMT
Absolute bullshit, hands down my favourite band of all time. Consistently excellent throughout their short career that left a legacy far greater than most. Johnny Marr creates some of the best jangling guitar riffs in the world, Mozza's lyrics are biting, insightful and hilarious, all with a firm visual identity and instantly recognisable overall sound that still sounds great today. Salopstick hates them because he's a prick, what's everyone else's excuse? We're not manic depressives with suicidal tendencies.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 20, 2014 20:52:50 GMT
Joy Division ticked all the same boxes that made The Smiths, but did them first and arguably better. Joy Division were undoubtedly a huge influence on The Cure, the Banshees,the Chameleons and much later the likes of Interpol, Editors etc. The Smiths were swimming in very different waters. They sounded nothing like Joy Division, lyrically or musically. The only thing that The Smiths & Joy Division have in common was that they were both from Manchester. .Ian Curtis actually lived in Macclesfield and worked in the dole office..writing songs while he was at work. No one ever listened to Warsaw Pact/Joy Division when they were around. .it was only after Curtis hung himself that they became famous & the money that brought in helped buy The Hacienda. Musically The Smiths were a universe apart..absolutely no comparison whatsoever..it's like comparing Chic Bates to Mark Hughes.
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Post by Robo10 on Jul 20, 2014 21:06:36 GMT
I can appreciate their art and influence, but as a band I find them a bit dull
Have seen Oasis live 4 or 5 times, great band live and a cracking atmosphere
However, I have also seen Slayer (mint!), Sepultura and others in their prime, great stuff
My band were lucky enough to support SLF, The Business, GBH (my first gig!), UK Subs and a few others over time, some great mosh pits their
I came home from an epic NOFX gig at Manchester Ritz in 2012 so dehydrated from beer and what I can best describe as scuffling/moshing/being on the floor I ended up in hospital 2 days later - good times!
It's amazing how people look after each other in a mosh pit!
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heisenberg
Academy Starlet
City 'Til I Die
Posts: 186
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Post by heisenberg on Jul 20, 2014 21:30:50 GMT
The Smiths were and still are mint!
Obviously it's a matter of opinion, but people who write off bands and all of there works having possibly not listened to 20/30% of the material they have recorded are frustrating in the extreme! Music is a wonderful thing that should be appreciate by all especially the greatness of the smiths love them or loathe them, except for dance music 'it's made by dull people for dull people'
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Post by BigKahunaBurger on Jul 20, 2014 21:46:34 GMT
An old girlfriend forced me to listen to them when we were about 18 and they made my ears bleed they were that bad. Now im a bit older I like a few of their songs. Still think most of it is just a racket though. Theyre abit like Oasis I reckon. If theyre from your time you think theyre the brilliant, but everyone else thinks theyre shit.I think that's utter bollocks. Liking The Smiths isn't about when you were born. There are loads of people who like them who were not even swimming around in their dad's bollocks when The Queen is Dead came out. It's purely a matter of personal taste whether you like their songs or not, but anyone who knows even the first thing about music would recognise the influence they've had on indie music as a whole. Absolutely. I'm 22, Mrs is 23 and we both love The Smiths. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 5:06:17 GMT
Hairdresser on fire ...all around Sloane Square. Mostly monumental tunes and ************** knows it. That said, if anyone is in doubt about Mozzer's twattishness, read his autobiography. No, I really used to like them. Saw them in 1986, and like a true Smiths fan would instantly weep at the song "I Know it's Over" from the Queen is Dead. I am totally familiar with their body of work and then some. As Trouserdog says they were and still are an incredibly important band in terms of musical history and influence - they certainly had me under their spell for a while, that's for sure. But time has not been kind to their music and today I find most of it pretty unlistenable. In a bizarre twist of fate Gary Numan has been the surprise beneficiary of any spare adoration that was once lavished on old Mozzer and co. So there we have it. For me Gary Numan is better than The Smiths. I'm not sure what that means but it makes sense to me. EDIT: Thinking about it...it might mean that I can only judge something on the merits it has for me today, not for what it once was. Their music is firmly anchored to a time and a place. As much as some people like Coronation Street, i'm sure they wouldn't be too thrilled at the prospect of watching re-runs from 1981. It would appear that the Smiths have no context or relevance in 2014. So, watch out for that inevitable final reformation payday. Nothing personal, it's just business.I started this thread because I do find it a little curious as to why I actually find them so unpalatable these days, and wondered if anyone else feels this way. Anyways, here's Gary Numan showing Morrissey how to do it with NIN. I'm not so sure I can say the same for "Hairdresser on Fire"...busy clippers, busy, busy, busy scissors....naah. This, however, is such a great tune and still stands up very well today. And, unlike Morrissey, he's actually a decent bloke, modest and scrupulously honest. I've heard some fairly unpleasant stories about old Smithy over the years. And yes, Gary Numan has made some totally shit music, his worst is far worse than anything by The Smiths, but there are also great fat dollops of genius in his early stuff and the stuff he wrote with Tubeway Army. Gary Numan is a punk at heart, and a legend. He changed the face of music permanently, and although he's not my favourite electronic artist, he is perhaps the most significant. Good bloke. GN interview with Jools Holland.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 22, 2014 6:08:28 GMT
Joy Division were undoubtedly a huge influence on The Cure, the Banshees,the Chameleons and much later the likes of Interpol, Editors etc. The Smiths were swimming in very different waters. They sounded nothing like Joy Division, lyrically or musically. The only thing that The Smiths & Joy Division have in common was that they were both from Manchester. .Ian Curtis actually lived in Macclesfield and worked in the dole office..writing songs while he was at work. No one ever listened to Warsaw Pact/Joy Division when they were around. .it was only after Curtis hung himself that they became famous & the money that brought in helped buy The Hacienda. Musically The Smiths were a universe apart..absolutely no comparison whatsoever..it's like comparing Chic Bates to Mark Hughes. They wrote about the same things and appealed to the same audience. Joy Division is probably the band most frequently compared to The Smiths.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 6:29:08 GMT
The only thing that The Smiths & Joy Division have in common was that they were both from Manchester. .Ian Curtis actually lived in Macclesfield and worked in the dole office..writing songs while he was at work. No one ever listened to Warsaw Pact/Joy Division when they were around. .it was only after Curtis hung himself that they became famous & the money that brought in helped buy The Hacienda. Musically The Smiths were a universe apart..absolutely no comparison whatsoever..it's like comparing Chic Bates to Mark Hughes. They wrote about the same things and appealed to the same audience. Joy Division is probably the band most frequently compared to The Smiths. You're a million miles off with last statement Brits. They're chalk and cheese. If you were vaguely familiar with either band, you simply wouldn't be saying that. They're not even of the same era. And in terms of fans, the Smiths in particular grew their own army of fans who found a resonance in Morrissey's lyrics and demeanour that spoke to them about their own lives. Joy Division didn't really have many fans at all before Ian Curtis killed himself. And I certainly can't recall Ian Curtis moaning about getting a puncture whilst out in the countryside on his bike or not having any nice clothes to go out in. Joy Division were dark, very dark. Curtis wore a dark colourless overcoat, Morrisey had a bunch of daffodils hanging out of his arse. I can't even see "Heaven Knows i'm Miserable Now" even being in the same genre as "Insight".
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 22, 2014 10:57:52 GMT
I have all the music from both of them (its not hard with the number of albums they did). I recognise its a touchy subject with The Smiths especially being the band many here grew up with, but they hit the same nerves and ticked the same boxes for many who listened to them.
All you need to do is google them together to see the sheer number of comparisons made even now.
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Post by GlennA on Jul 22, 2014 12:33:59 GMT
I have all the music from both of them (its not hard with the number of albums they did). I recognise its a touchy subject with The Smiths especially being the band many here grew up with, but they hit the same nerves and ticked the same boxes for many who listened to them. All you need to do is google them together to see the sheer number of comparisons made even now. I've been a proper indie saddo for well over thirty years, and I promise that's the very first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that Joy Division and the Smiths have anything in common at all.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 22, 2014 18:44:09 GMT
Spot on Glenn..couldn't agree more..I've been listening to Indie stuff for decades especially the 80s & early 90s and I would never compare The Smiths with Joy Division.
As you know New Order had a bit of an identity crisis when Curtis died. .Early 80s they were very Joy Division live but a bit lost in the studio..Power Corruption & Lies was the first album to break with the past..Lyrically they were hopeless whereas The Smiths were sublime..etc etc
Brits...I think your digging yourself into a hole mate but at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion..and your opinions just as valid as mine.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Jul 22, 2014 23:54:08 GMT
"Manchester, so much to answer for"
Both Joy Division and The Smiths were based around Manchester, and use the basic band set up, with a male vocalist to convey ideas and imagery through the medium of rock 'n' roll. They were both around in the early eighties. That's about where any similarities end.
Ian Curtis had died, all of his recordings had been released and the remaining members had become New Order before Morrissey and The Smiths had released anything.
I was an avid NME, Sounds, and Melody Maker reader and late night Peel listener. I bought 'Unknown Pleasures' from Terry Bloods up Hanley on the strength of radio plays and reviews. I bought 'Transmission', 'Komakimo' a flexi single, 'Atmosphere' 12" only, hot off the press from Replay in Tunstall. I think the rest of their output was released posthumously. It was dark introspective stuff, the musings of an extremely unhappy {and unwell} man, wrapped up in bleak allegory. "Here are the young men with weights on their shoulders." Dark stuff backed by eviscerating guitars and hypnotic drums, re-inforced by minimalistic stark Saville imagery. It was like being immersed in the doom and gloom of the winter weather, and the mood of post-industrial {pre-regeneration} Manchester. With a Ballard and Bowie 'Warsaw' twisted ambience. Out came the raincoats. My Dad said that it sounded like organ music, "bloody church music", when he came upstairs to tell me to turn 'Heart and Soul' off 'Closer' down. I never got to see Joy Division live. By the time I got to see them they had become New Order.
A lot of the Punk bands had signed to major labels, Sham 69 doing 'concept albums', Oi bands seemed to take over the Punk thing in Britain. In the Beginning Indie music as a whole was pretty gloomy fayre: Postcard Records, Josef K, The Cure, Bauhaus, Theatre of Hate, Bunnymen, Teardrop Explodes, The Birthday Party, Cocteau Twins and the Fall, breaking peoples heads with 'Hip Priest' and such, Sisters of Mercy and stuff.
It had started to take itself very seriously until The Smiths bost onto the scene. Like a breath of fresh air. The back drop of Manchester, with a cheeky irreverent, awkward look at life. {I never liked the 'Pretty Girls Make Graves' song much, but the rest of the macabre and gloom is Ealing comedy. Mini kitchen sink dramas about folk trying to escape the gloom and mundanity. Re-inforced by the cover art. Veering from atmospheric near-ballads, to mock rockabilly. Like The Byrds playing Elvis songs fronted by an ambiguous Manc. wearing an hearing aid. What. Got me into reading with the literary references.
Joy Division soundtracked my years of outgrowing the nest, The Smiths were present when I broke out on me own. I think I probably over dosed on them at the time. 30 or so years on and they're far less relevant, and I rarely think about playing them now. But they're still quality, and occasionally I get a Mozz couplet rattling around me head, or get the urge to play 'Atrocity Exhibition'.
*Recollections from The History of British Independent Music 1977-87.
I suppose if you were not really payitng attention it might sound a bit like 'Meat is Murder', from a different room.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 23, 2014 8:37:04 GMT
Brilliant post cheeesfreeex
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jul 23, 2014 9:35:21 GMT
That came from the heart, cheesfreex. I will have brushed shoulders with you at many a gig.
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Post by Gods on Jul 23, 2014 10:09:06 GMT
As one or two people have noted, it's a matter of taste and opinion. 1. The lyrics are clever/witty/enlightening. Only compared with the unalloyed drivel that accompanies nearly all other pop music. And only then if you think the pretentious introspective ramblings of a teenager are clever/witty/enlightening. In general they are only insightful to the teenager in question and his dreary friends. 2. The litmus test for any pop song is a decent tune. That is a very difficult bar to clear, so they are not alone - but they routinely fail that test 3. Morrisey doesn't really sing, and the lyrics don't scan. He essentially talks the dreary and banal words and s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-s (or concertinas) them over the random and discordant backing track 4. I am perfectly prepared to believe that Marr is an accomplished and influential guitarist 5. I doubt many people who had a girlfriend would have been attracted to the Smiths' music. Try these insightful lyrics over "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now": "The telly's en panne down so I put Marconi on But the music that came out reminded me of my monochrome existence And then the radio died So I picked up Gabriel Garcia Marquez. From the spiteful public library on the dirty side of town. Every twelfth page (not eleventh) had been ripped out Instead I went to bed And I slept till a dismal dawn Dreaming dolefully of Dill the Dog, and droogs. And maybe a deal with Decca". But you pays your money... That's a great post. Heaven knows I want to like the Smiths but they fail your '#2 - is it a decent tune' test almost all the time for me. I won't seek out a sound unless it grabs hold of me and doesn't let go but the Smiths are completely inaccessible to me. I guess there are 2 possibilities here, either their music is too smart for me to even begin to relate to or they don't have a decent composer
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jul 23, 2014 11:13:43 GMT
Here be a thing of great beauty. Does it 'rock?' No Is it morose, morbid, maudlin and moribund? Quite probably but let this not detract from its quality as a great track when it was written 30 years ago and a great track now. Does it speak to the youth of today? Who cares, they've got Kasabian, Lorde and Ed Sheerin, the poor devils.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 14:35:03 GMT
"Manchester, so much to answer for" Both Joy Division and The Smiths were based around Manchester, and use the basic band set up, with a male vocalist to convey ideas and imagery through the medium of rock 'n' roll. They were both around in the early eighties. That's about where any similarities end. Ian Curtis had died, all of his recordings had been released and the remaining members had become New Order before Morrissey and The Smiths had released anything. I was an avid NME, Sounds, and Melody Maker reader and late night Peel listener. I bought 'Unknown Pleasures' from Terry Bloods up Hanley on the strength of radio plays and reviews. I bought 'Transmission', 'Komakimo' a flexi single, 'Atmosphere' 12" only, hot off the press from Replay in Tunstall. I think the rest of their output was released posthumously. It was dark introspective stuff, the musings of an extremely unhappy {and unwell} man, wrapped up in bleak allegory. "Here are the young men with weights on their shoulders." Dark stuff backed by eviscerating guitars and hypnotic drums, re-inforced by minimalistic stark Saville imagery. It was like being immersed in the doom and gloom of the winter weather, and the mood of post-industrial {pre-regeneration} Manchester. With a Ballard and Bowie 'Warsaw' twisted ambience. Out came the raincoats. My Dad said that it sounded like organ music, "bloody church music", when he came upstairs to tell me to turn 'Heart and Soul' off 'Closer' down. I never got to see Joy Division live. By the time I got to see them they had become New Order. A lot of the Punk bands had signed to major labels, Sham 69 doing 'concept albums', Oi bands seemed to take over the Punk thing in Britain. In the Beginning Indie music as a whole was pretty gloomy fayre: Postcard Records, Josef K, The Cure, Bauhaus, Theatre of Hate, Bunnymen, Teardrop Explodes, The Birthday Party, Cocteau Twins and the Fall, breaking peoples heads with 'Hip Priest' and such, Sisters of Mercy and stuff. It had started to take itself very seriously until The Smiths bost onto the scene. Like a breath of fresh air. The back drop of Manchester, with a cheeky irreverent, awkward look at life. {I never liked the 'Pretty Girls Make Graves' song much, but the rest of the macabre and gloom is Ealing comedy. Mini kitchen sink dramas about folk trying to escape the gloom and mundanity. Re-inforced by the cover art. Veering from atmospheric near-ballads, to mock rockabilly. Like The Byrds playing Elvis songs fronted by an ambiguous Manc. wearing an hearing aid. What. Got me into reading with the literary references. Joy Division soundtracked my years of outgrowing the nest, The Smiths were present when I broke out on me own. I think I probably over dosed on them at the time. 30 or so years on and they're far less relevant, and I rarely think about playing them now. But they're still quality, and occasionally I get a Mozz couplet rattling around me head, or get the urge to play 'Atrocity Exhibition'. *Recollections from The History of British Independent Music 1977-87. I suppose if you were not really payitng attention it might sound a bit like 'Meat is Murder', from a different room. Great stuff me old Cheesola, I really enjoyed reading that. And poor old Brits is always going to come off with his tail between his legs when big gay music tarts like yourself, me, Glenn, Trousers and The Wizard show up on a thread. Thirty years of undying loyalty to Mark E. Smith fans, does indeed come with a few sniggers, no doubt. However, to be fair, I do feel that Brits does have a point in relation to the fans. Joy Division were the original slow burners of British indie. The Smiths hit the scene in the same way that Bros did, and many Smiths fans got turned onto Joy Division by this sudden discovery of decent music in the charts - so there was a good deal of crossover in that respect. But that's as far as the comparison goes for me. Sadly, I have been contemplating this thread for a few days now, and even more irritating is the fact that i'm now shamelessly yodelling Morrissey's awful vocals as I ride round on my moped, serenading my pals in the bar and to my missus, in the morning. She already knows i'm a prick and just looks at me and sort of shakes her head. You see, when I emerge from the shower in the morning....I go for the dramatic performance as well as the full vocal range, the yelps etc....with a rose clenched between my buttocks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 14:40:37 GMT
I have all the music from both of them (its not hard with the number of albums they did). I recognise its a touchy subject with The Smiths especially being the band many here grew up with, but they hit the same nerves and ticked the same boxes for many who listened to them. All you need to do is google them together to see the sheer number of comparisons made even now. I've been a proper indie saddo for well over thirty years, and I promise that's the very first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that Joy Division and the Smiths have anything in common at all. Well I used to follow you around. So if you're a big saddo, playing jangly pop music with songs in the charts as well, where does that put me? And Ade, Rog & Hutch... I wouldn't have missed it for anything Glenn.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jul 23, 2014 22:46:05 GMT
I massively disagree that they're a product of their time only, I'm 25 and have been an avid fan for at least a decade if not longer, but I wasn't even born in their heyday so to say they're context dependent is spurious.
Also The Smiths and Joy Division? What? I've never ever heard the two bands compared at all.
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