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Post by march4 on Apr 20, 2014 17:01:22 GMT
The club looked at this, spent money drawing up plans and getting planning approval before deciding against it.
Someone, somewhere thinks we have more pressing issues.
Part of the problem with our ground is the lack of revenue it generates during an average week.
I go to meetings/conferences at other grounds and the places are full of activity with other events going on at the same time. When I'm at a meeting at the Brit, it always seems empty. Derby have shops and other businesses in their ground which are busy during the week. Derby have the advantage of other businesses around them providing custom during the week. Perhaps the Holiday Inn should have ben a part of the ground to increase income.
A new build in the corner (or anywhere else) should include an imaginative idea for income generation.
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Post by nott1 on Apr 20, 2014 17:23:41 GMT
Make it a 30k stadium and we would be eligible for under 21 internationals and the like (more income), AND we could put away fans IN THE CORNER and have our fans BOTH ENDS........GREAT!
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Post by surreystokie on Apr 20, 2014 20:14:55 GMT
Am I missing something here? I've read through over eighty messages on this thread, and, as no-one has mentioned the thing which concerns me most, re this topic, I wonder if someone will tell me where I'm gong wrong? (This is serious and not sarcasm.) The main reason for those who aren't interested in having a filled-in oorner, for now. seems to be one of finance and the fact that they would prefer the money to be spent on players. As I see it, surely FFP (financial fair play) excludes capital expenditure from consideration, when assessing which clubs are breaking the FFP rules? Any monies spent on players,however, and most importantly their wages, must fit in with the whole concept, which is living within a club's means and spending only what you bring in, i.e. attendance monies, sponsorship,(inc Sky monies) merchandise etc. We surely cannot just go out and spend millions on players, beyond what is for us a fairly reduced income, relative to top clubs in the PL, as we are already near the top of the wages bill allowed, and are hopeless at getting rid of players we don't need or even want. Two seasons ago, believe it not, we were third of the twenty clubs, in NET tranfers - as we bought high and sold low, if at all and that sort of operation cannot continue. So if I am correct, we simply cannot use any money that could easily be spent on a much-needed filled-in corner, as that money is otherwise dead money or spent on wholly repaying debt, which is not always the greatest idea and certainly not where there is an alternative like making the corner, always the focus of the cameras, look like part of a professional football club and cetainly a PL one. Where is Lakeland Potter when you need him? Come on here, and correct me, LP, or let's get building, now, while the plans still hold and building more economical than it will be, in a few years time.
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Post by Linx on Apr 21, 2014 6:45:10 GMT
Looking at Southampton adds another perspective to this debate. Back in the days of The Dell, with its capacity of around 15,000, there were similar debates as to the right capacity for the new stadium, and whether Saints fans would fill it. The St.Mary's Stadium's capacity is 32,000 and they pretty much fill it for every game - that's double the crowds from the old days. Does Southampton have a bigger fanbase than us? Probably about the same, I reckon.
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Post by Northy on Apr 21, 2014 7:03:05 GMT
Derby County have a 30k plus stadium and might be joining us Apart from our ground looking rather odd on a world stage too -for at least half a dozen of the nineteen home games i.e. the 'bigger games' 30k is an easy fill (away end takes 5000 away supporters for starters -just ticket it sensibly - for lessor games you then price ticketing accordingly. (and who argues that premier league football could not be made a bit more affordable ? ) the club is awash with money and can readily afford this its not only affordable IT IS NOW OVERDUE. why cant people understand this ? It's because you say things like 'the club is awash with money' when it's more complicated than that and make unhelpful comparisons such as that with one-club town Derby County. Places like Derby Leicester Southampton etc. do only have 1 club, but Stoke merges into a next door town with a population of over 100,000, those other cities have very close rivals but also aren't near Liverpool and Manchester glory hunting areas, so we do need to entice more in with seats being available The extra seats could be used to bring in the future generations of supporters, school incentives, local junior clubs etc.etc.
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Post by sportsman on Apr 21, 2014 7:40:19 GMT
I'll repeat. A fish will only grow as big as the fish tank.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Apr 21, 2014 8:04:40 GMT
The number of cottage industry adopters on here is depressing. Our occupancy levels merit serious action on increasing seating capacity, quite apart from providing disabled facilities, improving stadium, eligibility for low-level international games and allowing relocation of away fans.
The expenditure does not affect FFP and is so small that it would not compromise player expenditure. An extra 1800 seats is not a significant outlay - at a time when PL income has sky-rocketed. We are recovering from the anti-drivel football effect of TP, crowds have increased and this has been massively underpinned by record early bird sales.
We have the plans, the permissions and a cheque book. a 50% occupancy would generate circa £400k p.a. in 4 years the cost would be 50% paid back. We're already about to go into our 7th PL campaign.
Fortune favours the brave - certainly with such a modest outlay.
The club should get on with it - now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 8:09:47 GMT
I'll repeat. A fish will only grow as big as the fish tank. I disagree. I've had loads of Goldfish in the past and none of them grew to the size of their respective tanks
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Post by Fred Ferret on Apr 21, 2014 8:16:15 GMT
I'll repeat. A fish will only grow as big as the fish tank. I disagree. I've had loads of Goldfish in the past and none of them grew to the size of their respective tanks Perhaps they were poor little overcautious fish, with no real ambition to grow. Pleased to note, however, that you invested in a bigger stadium.
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Post by sportsman on Apr 21, 2014 8:16:17 GMT
Before FFP I was always happy in that the coates family always tried to give the manager what he wanted and others seemed to be behind us.
Now you get the feeling that on potential income we are right down there. Current attendance, no increase in season ticket prices since we came up,
I know another 1800 seats won't suddenly put us with the top 6 income but you can't stand still while others try to grow.
Anyone know where we are in a league table on income?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 8:53:19 GMT
This season is the first season there has been large gaps in the crowd. Reason 1 being the previous 18 months being pretty damn dull (the upsurge in early bird sales this time round seems to back this up). Reason 2 being the crazy walk up price for the higher catergory games (the lower crowds against the likes of Man City, Chelsea and Everton and the non-sell outs against the likes of ManUre again seem to back this up).
But the demand is well and truly there, before this season our average attendances were as follows:
2008/09 - 27,020 2009/10 - 27,162 2010/11 - 26,858 2011/12 - 27,226 2012/13 - 26,722
That's a minimum of 96% of our capacity based on the lowest average. Have any of the people on here not advocating a couple of thousand extra seats tried to get tickets the Wednesday/Thursday before a match before this season? It's impossible to get 2 seats together, so for every crowd that's not quite a sell out I would suggest there's hundreds of floating fans or fans who work shifts/overtime etc. unable or no longer willing to attempt to get tickets so it doesn't tell the true story.
Even this season our lowest average yet we're averaging 26,068 (94% capacity). It's an absolute no brainer for me and shows a lack of ambition. Without attempting any extra marketing you could fill the seats for the Everton/Liverpool/ManUre/Spurs/Man City/Arsenal games and if it was a Saturday 1500 kick off you could probably add the likes of Villa/Newcastle/West Ham to that by simply giving them the whole of the South Stand and relocating the 1,500 fans in there to the new corner of the ground.
For the other games if the demand is not quite there we simply just extend the offers that the club put on currently for Save and Support account holders, season ticket holders, City'7's and the like.
I'm no marketing expert but I would suggest anyone that couldn't fill an extra couple of extra thousand seats for the MAJORITY of our 19 games (I accept a cold Tuesday night against Fulham might be a tough old ask) shouldn't be working in that role.
We should not be standing still here, it's not like anyone is advocating a White Elephant of a stand like at Wolves or Bradford......
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Post by Do it for dobing on Apr 21, 2014 9:12:29 GMT
Competely agree with Prestwich potter ,this is the time to do it while the club is on the up with an ambitious manager.
Lets wait and see if we can sustain sell outs for a season or more makes no sense.If you are selling out every week you will be losing potential supporter who can't get seats
The prices for the likes of Liverpool are not realistic for our area and should be reduced so that all income levels are able to attend these matches.If the seats in the new corner are not completely sold out on a Saturday surely a cash turnstile should be available for the remaining seats
The concourse areas need rebuilding and extending over the next few years they are not good enough
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Post by sportsman on Apr 21, 2014 9:20:28 GMT
There's no way I'd give any away team a bigger allocation. I agree though that it could easily be filled by whatever way they wanted to do it.
Maybe the reason it hasn't been done is as you say, the person not being able to do it should be sacked. The person given his main role in increasing the fan base by Peter coates a couple of years ago was Tony Scholes.
Someone else should be given that role as it's obviously not working. In fact it's been worse. The expensive prices for the top games doesn't make sense when they end up with an empty seat instead.
Someone off here could fill the stadium with just 5 minutes of thinking time and discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 9:33:57 GMT
After my admitted over emotional bluster, some very reasoned debate has ensued - the club really should take note. After reading the more recent stuff my mind stays the same, this is relatively small risk - easily done, ticks so many boxes and is if anything -- overdue.
Its a small corner of the ground - 1500-1800 seats with better facilities for key groups like the disabled (as I understand it)
WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD ON THIS - GET IT DONE !
One thing Surrey Stokie says in all this I found very significant too, in terms of fair play criteria - incredibly important - funding in short - we have got to break the mould of high wages and low re-sale value of our players and definitely shift the deadwood in the summer to free up more 'easy money'. Good news is that players not quite good enough for us, have done well elsewhere and should allow us to reverse previous trends e.g. Jerome and Kightly now justify sell on fees equal to or even, greater than what we signed them for.
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Post by generationex on Apr 21, 2014 10:05:04 GMT
I'd like to see PC fill the corner and create a top class disabled area and offer the other seats to the schools of Staffordshire, Shropshire, south Cheshire and west Derbyshire.
The seats should be given free to the top twenty improved pupils over each fortnight at every High School.
It would obviously be an act of charity in the short term, but the positive PR, the contribution towards a better future for the city and modest income from consumables would bring its own rewards.
In the long term it would also grow the supporter base, which in the absence of winning the league or champions league, is going to be a generational task.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 10:17:02 GMT
As said above, a relatively small number of unsold seats would be gobbled up in no time at all by a cash turnstile/s.
I know loads and loads of people who can't commit to a Season Ticket, but would go to games if it was easier to do so.
If, say, an average 1,000 pay-on-the-gates were available per game, and over the course of a season 8,000 people got to see games on this basis, who knows, a thousand or so of those might decide next season to buy a ST and voila, your committed fan base grows.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 21, 2014 10:24:43 GMT
Looking at Southampton adds another perspective to this debate. Back in the days of The Dell, with its capacity of around 15,000, there were similar debates as to the right capacity for the new stadium, and whether Saints fans would fill it. The St.Mary's Stadium's capacity is 32,000 and they pretty much fill it for every game - that's double the crowds from the old days. Does Southampton have a bigger fanbase than us? Probably about the same, I reckon. Whereas Southampton and Stoke have similar populations and the local towns Eastleigh and Newcastle are similar in size, the main difference is Southampton is able to pull on towns/cities outside its immediate area such as Salisbury and Winchester. Once you get outside North Staffordshire you are in another top clubs drawing area such as West Brom., Villa (big fan base), Manchester, Liverpool etc. plus the drawing power of Wolves, Port Vale, Walsall, etc. Southampton have competition from the east and west sides of them. A further point is ManUs drawing power stretches across North Staffs. Unfortunately there are those (xxxx) who travel from North Staffs to support ManU. Stoke support has always suffered from strong competition from other Staffordshire clubs (often 3 in the top league) and the big metropolises to the north and south. Spending on the ground had little to do with players and other general running costs. It is capital development/investment that does not appear on the profit and loss account and is written of/depreciated over many years, typically 25 years. It is a question of cash flow, but the type of business the owners are in has no cash flow issues and I'm sure they would allocate the capital to invest. The question is (sorry for the lesson in accountancy), is it a sensible capital investment with a sensible pay-back period. How much extra revenue would the investment bring in? (N.B. Extra revenue not replacement revenue.) I'm sure the club accountants know their business. If the pay-back is reasonable, the investment could be made to fill in the corner, and if it was my business, I would make a few minor improvements to other areas of the ground such as toilets, improved conference facilities, retail outlets, better concert facilities, parking, etc. to raise other forms of revenue and then re-life the stadium for an extended period so the annual profit and loss account is not impacted by increased depreciation.
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Post by jeycov on Apr 21, 2014 10:36:02 GMT
Competely agree with Prestwich potter ,this is the time to do it while the club is on the up with an ambitious manager. Lets wait and see if we can sustain sell outs for a season or more makes no sense.If you are selling out every week you will be losing potential supporter who can't get seats The prices for the likes of Liverpool are not realistic for our area and should be reduced so that all income levels are able to attend these matches.If the seats in the new corner are not completely sold out on a Saturday surely a cash turnstile should be available for the remaining seats The concourse areas need rebuilding and extending over the next few years they are not good enough Lets wait and see if we can sustain sell outs for a season or more makes no sense.If you are selling out every week you will be losing potential supporter who can't get seatsGreat point If it's financially viable (if we have gone as far as getting planning permission I'm guessing it is) then this is a good time to show our commitment to take the club forward. It would send a message to potential players that we are looking to move on to the next level We should be prepared to take a calculated risk here with some additional plans to invite groups, schoolchildren etc to experience Premiership football when there are spaces to fill After all we do have Bet 365 as our sponsors
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Post by spiderpuss on Apr 21, 2014 10:47:04 GMT
Last season the removal of TP and the installation of MH was the most pressing concern. It was never going to be on the cards last year. Still with people turning their back on the club at the beginning of the year (empty areas), you can see why the club are cautious. For me I think filling in this corner makes sitting in that part of the ground as a more attractive proposition. Those areas are traditionally slow sellers and if it was all enclosed fans may be prepared to splash the cash quicker. Perhaps some deal could be done (mini-season tickets) to encourage an uptake of the new area, for those that don't want the full 19.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 10:58:49 GMT
Last season the removal of TP and the installation of MH was the most pressing concern. It was never going to be on the cards last year. Still with people turning their back on the club at the beginning of the year (empty areas), you can see why the club are cautious. For me I think filling in this corner makes sitting in that part of the ground as a more attractive proposition. Those areas are traditionally slow sellers and if it was all enclosed fans may be prepared to splash the cash quicker. Perhaps some deal could be done (mini-season tickets) to encourage an uptake of the new area, for those that don't want the full 19. Mini season tickets are a great idea and ideal for that proposed area. 3 games for say £75, 6 games for £144 and 9 games for £207. You upload the games of your choice on to your card in the weeks/days before and for the bigger games once they're gone they're gone. Perfect for exiles, shift workers, students returning home, the more casual fan. I know several fans who would go for this type of ticket in a heartbeat due to their personal circumstances meaning a full season ticket isn't ideal....
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Post by nott1 on Apr 21, 2014 11:47:51 GMT
I'll repeat. A fish will only grow as big as the fish tank. I must buy some bigger underpants based on that!
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Apr 21, 2014 11:51:55 GMT
Last season the removal of TP and the installation of MH was the most pressing concern. It was never going to be on the cards last year. Still with people turning their back on the club at the beginning of the year (empty areas), you can see why the club are cautious. For me I think filling in this corner makes sitting in that part of the ground as a more attractive proposition. Those areas are traditionally slow sellers and if it was all enclosed fans may be prepared to splash the cash quicker. Perhaps some deal could be done (mini-season tickets) to encourage an uptake of the new area, for those that don't want the full 19. Mini season tickets are a great idea and ideal for that proposed area. 3 games for say £75, 6 games for £144 and 9 games for £207. You upload the games of your choice on to your card in the weeks/days before and for the bigger games once they're gone they're gone. Perfect for exiles, shift workers, students returning home, the more casual fan. I know several fans who would go for this type of ticket in a heartbeat due to their personal circumstances meaning a full season ticket isn't ideal.... They would be good but should only allow 1 game from each Cat. That will stop the glory boys from just picking the 'big' games. No real need to fill in any corner as once we lose a couple there will be plenty of seats again.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Apr 21, 2014 11:52:45 GMT
Great points in here folks, we need to keep putting pressure on the club to do this.
We all want to see the stadium improve and improve the matchday experience, parking, wheelchair spaces/access, the general look and feel of the place, rail access, ticket purchases, the shop. There are more things wrong with that stadium that just make me scratch my head with why nobody has the attention to detail to get it right and do it well the first time its incredibly disappointing. But it means im considerably less suprised when they get the other things wrong (the card system, ticket allocation, communication with fans, shoddy website and merchandise etc)
Anyone who went to cardiff would of seen the benefits of having a concourse the full width of the base of the stadium, where as hours is only half that size. Provided a lot more space and made all the other stuff (toilets, TVs, food and drinks) a lot better because of it. And they had automated gates with no need for a bloody ticket person to operate them. Surely widening the concourse should be one of the next steps. It just shows how the stadium was made on such a budget we literally got half a concourse. Moving around before a game and at half time is shocking, we deserve better.
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Post by AlliG on Apr 21, 2014 12:08:56 GMT
Great points in here folks, we need to keep putting pressure on the club to do this. Anyone who went to cardiff would of seen the benefits of having a concourse the full width of the base of the stadium, where as hours is only half that size. Provided a lot more space and made all the other stuff (toilets, TVs, food and drinks) a lot better because of it. And they had automated gates with no need for a bloody ticket person to operate them. Surely widening the concourse should be one of the next steps. It just shows how the stadium was made on such a budget we literally got half a concourse. Moving around before a game and at half time is shocking, we deserve better. Both were built on a fixed price contract, Cardiff's at £42m (out of a £100m site development) to our £15m. Even allowing for inflation that is a big difference, so the difference in quality and facilities for the "ordinary" fan should be no surprise.
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 21, 2014 12:20:18 GMT
Personally I would love to see the corners filled in! I know this must of course be up to the people who got the money, but I think the match day experience would be so much better! Not only would the stadium look better and more complete, but hopefull it would reduce the wind inside the stadium too! I'm a Norwegian, but it feels like I'm freezing my ass off every time I'm at the Brit! Will never stop going because of that, but a more intimate stadium would be very welcomed the way I see it!
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Post by sportsman on Apr 21, 2014 12:25:16 GMT
Who's actually responsible for the what goes on and happens at the stadium if anyone? Or is it a case of I'm alright jack in my plush area and seat? Was it said denise' husband is in charge of the vision for the training ground?
What bright spark is in charge of the main attraction vision? Don't hold your breath though. I spent 5 years emailing the club to get the flags back on the stand, you know just to make it look prem standard.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Apr 21, 2014 12:42:30 GMT
No idea whos in charge of the grand vision but it doesnt feel like theres a prolonged plan. I was always hoping the shop, ticket office and office space would move to a building detached from the stadium like blunderland/villa and we could just have the changing facilities in the corner and allow us to build over it one day with more seats and/or a tv commentary box. A bit like the corner at Old Trafford. Seems the ideal place for it. Then put a scoreboard attached to the roof of the stadium making most of the space for seats. Combine that with a new train stop at the bottom of the hill with better paths getting to and from the stadium and new road to the A500 and we would be away.
Also make more of an effort with our sir stan statue, making sure its visible from the road, and put the Gordon Banks statue in front of the main stand, show the world we are a club with some history. That and expanding the concourse of course to the full width of the stadium. Not the crush hazard it feels at the moment. Thats why we cant have queues etc, it would be bloody dangerous
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Post by sportsman on Apr 21, 2014 12:48:15 GMT
See, it's easy to have the vision. Though not for some in a position to do anything about it.
I'm alright jack.
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Post by sportsman on Apr 21, 2014 12:51:07 GMT
If we had decent facilities and ways of getting served easier and quicker maybe fans wouldn't have to go down there on 35 mins every home game. There must have been 3000 that missed Pieters goal against Newcastle!
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Post by foxysgloves on Apr 21, 2014 13:15:38 GMT
I'll repeat. A fish will only grow as big as the fish tank. Stephen Ireland has a massive fish tank in his house. Just saying.
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