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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 13:51:47 GMT
There's been quite a few people on here who have defended our recent failings by suggesting that despite our lack of goals this season, we have been creating more chances than last season and just simply haven't been converting them. I've just done a rough calculation of our shots on target after eight games last season compared to our shots on target after eight games this season and these are the stats I have found:
2012/13 season shots on target after eight games - 38 - Reading (H) - Arsenal (H) - Wigan (A) - Man City (H) - Chelsea (A) - Swansea (H) - Liverpool (A) - Man Utd (A)
2013/14 season shots on target after eight games - 27 - Liverpool (A) - Palace (H) - West Ham (A) - Man City (H) - Arsenal (A) - Norwich (H) - Fulham (A) - West Brom (H)
Not only have we recorded eleven less attempts on goal after eight games this season, but you could argue we had a tougher start to the 2012/13 than we did this season as well. I'm not trying to preach doom and gloom, we need to give Hughes time and hope his methods can start delivering results soon, but let's not kid ourselves into believing our problems lie solely with poor strikers and a failure to convert chances.
We have brought in numerous creative midfield players this season ( Arnie, Assaidi, Ireland, Pennant ) and so far these midfielders have provided less chances for our attackers than last season, our crossing from wide positions and dead ball positions has been absolutely woeful. There's no doubt that Jones and Crouch need to improve, but I doubt many strikers in the world would've scored prolifically off the service we have provided this season, it just hasn't been good enough at all.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 20, 2013 14:00:08 GMT
The problem is two fold. The midfield isn't providing a platform to build from (we need a DM) and the striker isn't moving or clever enough to create space ahead of the creative players for them to do anything with it. Arnie and Ireland were our best two outfield players yesterday and have been playing well. They aren't the problem. But if the ball isn't coming to them then what the fuck can they do? And if there's no movement ahead of them what can they do? The strikers we have our dreadful and if we had one who would move and create space it would make such a massive difference to the way we play. The same goes for if we had someone protecting the back four and allowing a platform for attacking players to have a license to play.
But it's a work in progress and Hughes is suffering for not sorting out areas TP consistently got wrong. It took him until N'Zonzi to sign a midfielder better than Delap and the striker purchases are just woeful.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 14:04:29 GMT
Thanks for those stats luke, very enlightening and very interesting to be fair.
Over to you Leslie.
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 14:11:06 GMT
The problem is two fold. The midfield isn't providing a platform to build from (we need a DM) and the striker isn't moving or clever enough to create space ahead of the creative players for them to do anything with it. Arnie and Ireland were our best two outfield players yesterday and have been playing well. They aren't the problem. But if the ball isn't coming to them then what the fuck can they do? And if there's no movement ahead of them what can they do? The strikers we have our dreadful and if we had one who would move and create space it would make such a massive difference to the way we play. The same goes for if we had someone protecting the back four and allowing a platform for attacking players to have a license to play. But it's a work in progress and Hughes is suffering for not sorting out areas TP consistently got wrong. It took him until N'Zonzi to sign a midfielder better than Delap and the striker purchases are just woeful. I agree, the movement has been very poor in the final third, we desperately need some mobility. Our shape when we lose possession has been a major issue this season. I have a degree of sympathy for N'Zonzi to be honest because he's having to do the work of three people when we lose possession at the moment and that is definitely affecting his form. It's pretty obvious that Ireland is instructed to play more advanced than Adam and N'Zonzi so when we lose the ball we should have at least two holding midfielders back, time and time again Adam is still in their half when they break and we are constantly being over ran through the middle. Adam hasn't got the work rate or defensive ability to play that role, I don't know how much evidence Hughes needs of that. People mocked our two banks of four system under Pulis, but at least we were compact and hard to break down when we lost possession, at the moment we are very vulnerable without the ball. |
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Oct 20, 2013 14:13:29 GMT
The movement and the TEMPO of the passing is whats wrong for me because at times we are pedestrian at best.As onlooker says very interesting stats.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 20, 2013 14:18:45 GMT
The problem is two fold. The midfield isn't providing a platform to build from (we need a DM) and the striker isn't moving or clever enough to create space ahead of the creative players for them to do anything with it. Arnie and Ireland were our best two outfield players yesterday and have been playing well. They aren't the problem. But if the ball isn't coming to them then what the fuck can they do? And if there's no movement ahead of them what can they do? The strikers we have our dreadful and if we had one who would move and create space it would make such a massive difference to the way we play. The same goes for if we had someone protecting the back four and allowing a platform for attacking players to have a license to play. But it's a work in progress and Hughes is suffering for not sorting out areas TP consistently got wrong. It took him until N'Zonzi to sign a midfielder better than Delap and the striker purchases are just woeful. I agree, the movement has been very poor in the final third, we desperately need some mobility. Our shape when we lose possession has been a major issue this season. I have a degree of sympathy for N'Zonzi to be honest because he's having to do the work of three people when we lose possession at the moment and that is definitely affecting his form. It's pretty obvious that Ireland is instructed to play more advanced than Adam and N'Zonzi so when we lose the ball we should have at least two holding midfielders back, time and time again Adam is still in their half when they break and we are constantly being over ran through the middle. Adam hasn't got the work rate or defensive ability to play that role, I don't know how much evidence Hughes needs of that. People mocked our two banks of four system under Pulis, but at least we were compact and hard to break down when we lost possession, at the moment we are very vulnerable without the ball. I don't have sympathy for him. He should be better at doing it but he just isn't disciplined enough. It's one of the reasons I've wanted a DM for a long time even when N'Zonzi was playing well last season. He just doesn't track runners or do the dirty work he should. He needs someone alongside him. If we did that I think we'd get the best from him. Relying on Adam and N'Zonzi as holding midfielders is plain stupid imo and it's Hughes' first major mistake this season for me. That midfield yesterday on paper was piss weak and so it proved. We never should have signed Adam, he has no use in any decent football side. He especially has no use in a TP football side (which made his signing particularly baffling) and from no on he should have very little to do with our side. We definitely need a defensive midfielder. Signing one will free the whole side up. From now he has to bin Adam completely and try Cameron there imo and instruct him to just sit. As much as the balance of TP's aide was fucked, so was that yesterday. But unlike with TP I have faith that balance can be addressed. If it's not then Hughes is thick as pig shit. |
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Post by thehoof on Oct 20, 2013 14:29:14 GMT
I am interested in where the Stats are from Luke (and I am not saying they are wrong), because I cannot remember us having a shot or corner against Arsenal at home last year, and I remember 2 (at best) in the bore draw at Anfield (Kightly's chip and Adams scuff when one on one with Reina )- that means 36 attempts on goal in the other 6 games- and I'd venture that Man U was probably the game where we had most efforts?
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 14:40:07 GMT
I agree, the movement has been very poor in the final third, we desperately need some mobility. Our shape when we lose possession has been a major issue this season. I have a degree of sympathy for N'Zonzi to be honest because he's having to do the work of three people when we lose possession at the moment and that is definitely affecting his form. It's pretty obvious that Ireland is instructed to play more advanced than Adam and N'Zonzi so when we lose the ball we should have at least two holding midfielders back, time and time again Adam is still in their half when they break and we are constantly being over ran through the middle. Adam hasn't got the work rate or defensive ability to play that role, I don't know how much evidence Hughes needs of that. People mocked our two banks of four system under Pulis, but at least we were compact and hard to break down when we lost possession, at the moment we are very vulnerable without the ball. I don't have sympathy for him. He should be better at doing it but he just isn't disciplined enough. It's one of the reasons I've wanted a DM for a long time even when N'Zonzi was playing well last season. He just doesn't track runners or do the dirty work he should. He needs someone alongside him. If we did that I think we'd get the best from him. Relying on Adam and N'Zonzi as holding midfielders is plain stupid imo and it's Hughes' first major mistake this season for me. That midfield yesterday on paper was piss weak and so it proved. We never should have signed Adam, he has no use in any decent football side. He especially has no use in a TP football side (which made his signing particularly baffling) and from no on he should have very little to do with our side. We definitely need a defensive midfielder. Signing one will free the whole side up. From now he has to bin Adam completely and try Cameron there imo and instruct him to just sit. As much as the balance of TP's aide was fucked, so was that yesterday. But unlike with TP I have faith that balance can be addressed. If it's not then Hughes is thick as pig shit. For all his faults I'd be happy for Whelan to come back in, it's no coincidence that N'Zonzi's best form for us has come when he's been playing alongside him, he's able to keep us compact and break play up better than most in our squad and take some of the defensive responsibility off N'Zonzi. |
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 14:41:04 GMT
I am interested in where the Stats are from Luke (and I am not saying they are wrong), because I cannot remember us having a shot or corner against Arsenal at home last year, and I remember 2 (at best) in the bore draw at Anfield (Kightly's chip and Adams scuff when one on one with Reina )- that means 36 attempts on goal in the other 6 games- and I'd venture that Man U was probably the game where we had most efforts? Courtesy of the BBC website mate. I think the Wigan away game was the match we had the most efforts in, it was Charlie Adam's debut and I seem to recall us having about 15 attempts at goal in that match and were denied by a world class save by Al Habsi late on. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 20, 2013 14:43:32 GMT
I don't have sympathy for him. He should be better at doing it but he just isn't disciplined enough. It's one of the reasons I've wanted a DM for a long time even when N'Zonzi was playing well last season. He just doesn't track runners or do the dirty work he should. He needs someone alongside him. If we did that I think we'd get the best from him. Relying on Adam and N'Zonzi as holding midfielders is plain stupid imo and it's Hughes' first major mistake this season for me. That midfield yesterday on paper was piss weak and so it proved. We never should have signed Adam, he has no use in any decent football side. He especially has no use in a TP football side (which made his signing particularly baffling) and from no on he should have very little to do with our side. We definitely need a defensive midfielder. Signing one will free the whole side up. From now he has to bin Adam completely and try Cameron there imo and instruct him to just sit. As much as the balance of TP's aide was fucked, so was that yesterday. But unlike with TP I have faith that balance can be addressed. If it's not then Hughes is thick as pig shit. For all his faults I'd be happy for Whelan to come back in, it's no coincidence that N'Zonzi's best form for us has come when he's been playing alongside him, he's able to keep us compact and break play up better than most in our squad and take some of the defensive responsibility off N'Zonzi. I wouldn't be against it but I don't think he uses the ball well enough. I'd love to see Cameron or Muniesa there. I'd go for Cameron first because I'm not convinced by him at right back offensively and he has a wonderful knack of winning the ball. It's what we need. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 14:44:58 GMT
Shots on target don't necessarily translate as 'chances' though. A harmless daisy cutter from 20 yards that farts its way into the keeper's grateful arms isn't more of a chance than a shot that hits the post or Ireland's effort he put over yesterday is it?
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 14:48:50 GMT
For all his faults I'd be happy for Whelan to come back in, it's no coincidence that N'Zonzi's best form for us has come when he's been playing alongside him, he's able to keep us compact and break play up better than most in our squad and take some of the defensive responsibility off N'Zonzi. I wouldn't be against it but I don't think he uses the ball well enough. I'd love to see Cameron or Muniesa there. I'd go for Cameron first because I'm not convinced by him at right back offensively and he has a wonderful knack of winning the ball. It's what we need. Yeah, I wouldn't be against the idea of playing Cameron or Muniesa. I remember us playing Cameron in midfield at the Emirates last season and he was probably our best player in that game. |
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Oct 20, 2013 14:50:24 GMT
I'm not shocked by the stats because of the inadequacies of the strikers.
It doesn't matter what style we play if the forward doesn't hold the ball up you've got no chance of playing in and around the opposition's box.
It simply has to stick so the likes of Arnie and Ireland can make runs beyond the striker.
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 14:52:49 GMT
Shots on target don't necessarily translate as 'chances' though. A harmless daisy cutter from 20 yards that farts its way into the keeper's grateful arms isn't more of a chance than a shot that hits the post or Ireland's effort he put over yesterday is it? True, but I do think shots on target stats can give you a decent reflection on how many decent chances you are creating. Even if the majority of our 38 shots on target after eight games last season were long distance efforts, at least we were working the keeper. I doubt Boaz Myhill and John Ruddy will have an easier afternoon all season than they have had at the Brit over the last few weeks. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 14:54:05 GMT
I wouldn't say that counted as 'working the keeper' if all he has to do is bend down and pick it up.
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 14:55:16 GMT
I wouldn't say that counted as 'working the keeper' if all he has to do is bend down and pick it up. It's working the keeper considerably more than watching an effort fly over or past the post and not having to make any contact with the ball at all. |
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Post by Davef on Oct 20, 2013 15:20:12 GMT
According to Soccerbase the stats are 26 last season and 28 this season.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:23:40 GMT
I wouldn't say that counted as 'working the keeper' if all he has to do is bend down and pick it up. It's working the keeper considerably more than watching an effort fly over or past the post and not having to make any contact with the ball at all. So you're saying that's more of a chance than the Ireland one yesterday then? Or an effort that whizzed just over or gets defected inches wide? |
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 15:27:43 GMT
According to Soccerbase the stats are 26 last season and 28 this season. Not sure then, I'm just going off the BBC match reports from our first eight games last season and our first eight games this season which provided the stats I put in the original post. |
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 15:29:06 GMT
It's working the keeper considerably more than watching an effort fly over or past the post and not having to make any contact with the ball at all. So you're saying that's more of a chance than the Ireland one yesterday then? Or an effort that whizzed just over or gets defected inches wide? No I haven't said that, I said a shot on target is working the opposition keeper more than a shot off target. |
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Post by Davef on Oct 20, 2013 15:32:50 GMT
Just checked another app with Opta stats. It's 26-28.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 20, 2013 15:34:28 GMT
Derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner SHIT BIN!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:34:55 GMT
So you're saying that's more of a chance than the Ireland one yesterday then? Or an effort that whizzed just over or gets defected inches wide? No I haven't said that, I said a shot on target is working the opposition keeper more than a shot off target. What if he has to dive full stretch because he doesn't know if it's going in or not? What if he has to rush out of his goal to narrow the angle? It isn't that black or white. |
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Post by digger on Oct 20, 2013 15:37:21 GMT
There's been quite a few people on here who have defended our recent failings by suggesting that despite our lack of goals this season, we have been creating more chances than last season and just simply haven't been converting them. I've just done a rough calculation of our shots on target after eight games last season compared to our shots on target after eight games this season and these are the stats I have found: 2012/13 season shots on target after eight games - 38 - Reading (a) - Arsenal (H) - Wigan (A) - Man City (H) - Chelsea (A) - Swansea (H) - Liverpool (A) - Man Utd (A) 2013/14 season shots on target after eight games - 27 - Liverpool (A) - Palace (H) - West Ham (A) - Man City (H) - Arsenal (A) - Norwich (H) - Fulham (A) - West Brom (H) Not only have we recorded eleven less attempts on goal after eight games this season, but you could argue we had a tougher start to the 2012/13 than we did this season as well. I'm not trying to preach doom and gloom, we need to give Hughes time and hope his methods can start delivering results soon, but let's not kid ourselves into believing our problems lie solely with poor strikers and a failure to convert chances. We have brought in numerous creative midfield players this season ( Arnie, Assaidi, Ireland, Pennant ) and so far these midfielders have provided less chances for our attackers than last season, our crossing from wide positions and dead ball positions has been absolutely woeful. There's no doubt that Jones and Crouch need to improve, but I doubt many strikers in the world would've scored prolifically off the service we have provided this season, it just hasn't been good enough at all. |
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Post by luke45 on Oct 20, 2013 15:39:12 GMT
Derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner SHIT BIN!  That's assuming opta and soccerbase are right and the BBC are wrong of course! even if the BBC's stats are wrong it still doesn't alter my opinion from the original post to be honest. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:39:51 GMT
There's been quite a few people on here who have defended our recent failings by suggesting that despite our lack of goals this season, we have been creating more chances than last season and just simply haven't been converting them. I've just done a rough calculation of our shots on target after eight games last season compared to our shots on target after eight games this season and these are the stats I have found: 2012/13 season shots on target after eight games - 38 - Reading (H) - Arsenal (H) - Wigan (A) - Man City (H) - Chelsea (A) - Swansea (H) - Liverpool (A) - Man Utd (A) 2013/14 season shots on target after eight games - 27 - Liverpool (A) - Palace (H) - West Ham (A) - Man City (H) - Arsenal (A) - Norwich (H) - Fulham (A) - West Brom (H) Not only have we recorded eleven less attempts on goal after eight games this season, but you could argue we had a tougher start to the 2012/13 than we did this season as well. I'm not trying to preach doom and gloom, we need to give Hughes time and hope his methods can start delivering results soon, but let's not kid ourselves into believing our problems lie solely with poor strikers and a failure to convert chances. We have brought in numerous creative midfield players this season ( Arnie, Assaidi, Ireland, Pennant ) and so far these midfielders have provided less chances for our attackers than last season, our crossing from wide positions and dead ball positions has been absolutely woeful. There's no doubt that Jones and Crouch need to improve, but I doubt many strikers in the world would've scored prolifically off the service we have provided this season, it just hasn't been good enough at all. Agree with the figures you have there, but we've so far had 95 shots in total against 69 after the same period. The least number of shots we've had in one game so far is 8 - only 3 of the 8 games last season had more than 8 shots (up to this point). We've also happened to score 4 less, conceded 2 less and got the same amount of points after the same number of games. Of course, none of this actually matters at all. You don't win your games, score goals or get any extra points because of what happened last season. We can all get carried away making comparisons but it doesn't serve any purpose at all - neither does looking at stats in isolation either. There is also nothing to tell us what chances would have been created under any other circumstances either. Those stats won't separate out the dozen chances Shawcross and Huth have had from corners between them; or the two occasions against Fulham where Ireland and Walters should have shot in good positions rather than try to lay it off. It's also an issue that just throwing some money at will solve either. Cornelius got injured for Cardiff; Soldado has so far only scored 2 penalties; Van Wolfswinkel only scored 1 in the Prem; Hooper none; Altidore none; Bony 1; Osvaldo 1. We obviously have got a problem hitting the target and scoring and I think our tempo needs upping a bit at times. However, I don't think it is half as bad as some are making out (especially when using one set of figures to 'prove' their point without looking at others). |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 20, 2013 15:41:49 GMT
Derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner derner SHIT BIN! That's assuming opta and soccerbase are right and the BBC are wrong of course! even if the BBC's stats are wrong it still doesn't alter my opinion from the original post to be honest.  I'm just being silly! In this instance though I think Opta are the ones to take the stats from and that's not just because it suits my opinion better! It's their job and in this instance a better source imo. I think we've created more this season in general but it's still not good enough and is hamstrung by what I've commented on previously. |
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 20, 2013 15:42:08 GMT
Come boxing day I fear these kind of posts will be plentiful. Les just has to make sure the second half of the season is an improvement.
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Post by cartman123 on Oct 20, 2013 15:45:37 GMT
He used the BBC for his stats LOL. Unbelievable. Shit bin.
And anyway, if it weren't for Pulis we wouldn't be in this position. He's made practically every player we have so defensive minded. It's going to take a lot of work to rectify this.
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Post by farmer on Oct 20, 2013 15:47:31 GMT
I'm not shocked by the stats because of the inadequacies of the strikers. It doesn't matter what style we play if the forward doesn't hold the ball up you've got no chance of playing in and around the opposition's box. It simply has to stick so the likes of Arnie and Ireland can make runs beyond the striker. You are right its not if we are making clear cut chances for the forwards to miss,we need to defend as a team and attack as a team at this moment of time if Pele was upfront for us we would not score many more. |
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That's assuming opta and soccerbase are right and the BBC are wrong of course! 
I'm just being silly! In this instance though I think Opta are the ones to take the stats from and that's not just because it suits my opinion better! 
