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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jun 19, 2012 8:37:22 GMT
Looks that way then. When I get home to a pc I will write down my views/opinion if you like then you can make your opinion of me an informed one. Either way I don't really care a shit what you or anyone else thinks to be honest. Don't bother offering up your opinions then. Sorry I meant of me not my opinions.
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Post by JurgenVandeurzen on Jun 19, 2012 8:46:15 GMT
Can you be an English Pakistani? I don't think so, but then if I think that does that make me a racist? H +1
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Post by sixbobstokie on Jun 19, 2012 9:05:47 GMT
Didn't we have a song about vindaloo once, yeh we do take the piss, but this country is accepting and welcoming of most things probably due to our own history. Articles like this only serve to stir the worst in us because they are trivial and jobsworthy. Britain is a broad church and i personally don't give a toss which part of that church anyone belongs to as long as they are decent human beings and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives. I know a Scotsman who supports England if that counts bye the way.
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Post by unknown182 on Jun 19, 2012 9:08:01 GMT
the writer is so mis-informed
"The Crusades are romanticised in the west as heroic battles to win back the holy lands in the name of Christianity. But for Muslims they are remembered as two centuries of brutal and unprovoked attacks on Arab lands"
the Arabs attacked Europe long before the crusades. unprovoked my arse.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 9:33:21 GMT
What a load of old shit.
The same posters with the same ignorant opinions.
Aside from his questionable slant on the Crusades and pissed up blokes dressed as Knights surely the most significant part of this blokes article is the stuff on his personal experiences.
Very depressing reading and some of the posts on here don't make it any less so.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2012 9:46:21 GMT
What a load of old shit. The same posters with the same ignorant opinions. Aside from his questionable slant on the Crusades and pissed up blokes dressed as Knights surely the most significant part of this blokes article is the stuff on his personal experiences. Very depressing reading and some of the posts on here don't make it any less so. to be fair foxy i would say that the fact that the writer himself only attributed three lines to his own personal experiences whilst concentrating heavily on the crusades argument in itself shows that for him, the significant part of this article IS related to the crusades. it isn't really fair of you to therefore slate others on this board because they are pointing out that, if nothing else, he is actually not just questionable but completely factually incorrect! HE only made a very brief mention of his experiences and didn't seem too traumatised by it; he simply said they were less than welcoming, i'm pretty sure if he had been horrified or mentally scarred by it he would have made a point of telling us this but i don't see why you feel the need to fight his corner and decide that no-one should disagree with him because of his treatment (which no-one would deny is wrong) when he himself didn't think it merited more than a very tiny part in his article.if he wants to take a stance against this then fine (although he doesn't strike me as being too upset by it) but don't go around doing it for him and dismissing very valid arguments by people on here simply because you feel the need to fight for him and decide that if anyone disagrees with him then they are ignorant to his plight etc.
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Post by maxplonk on Jun 19, 2012 9:48:06 GMT
It's not really about how or why fans act or dress or behave in the way they do. the fact is its about freedom of choice , this debate ,this forum would not be allowed in most Muslim countries . Should we change our way of life to accommodate the wishes of a vocal minority What choices do the people of Syria enjoy? If I want to dress as a crusader,drink lots of alcohol ,while munching a sausage roll I will , Im not doing it to offend anyone .the fact is Muslims would love to have sharia law in this country I loath there arrogance Agree with that......one of the daftest things I've seen in the papers recently was a photo of muslims demonstrating in the UK,oneof them holding a placard claiming "Free Speech go to hell" The (almost surreal) ironybeing totally lost on the individual holding up the sign ???
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Post by RAF on Jun 19, 2012 9:48:51 GMT
What a load of old shit. The same posters with the same ignorant opinions. Aside from his questionable slant on the Crusades and pissed up blokes dressed as Knights surely the most significant part of this blokes article is the stuff on his personal experiences. Very depressing reading and some of the posts on here don't make it any less so. Please enlighten us with your opinion. Instead of labelling them ignorant posts please address the posts you think are ignorant and tell us why you think they are so and what you think is right. H
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Post by chinesedave on Jun 19, 2012 9:51:15 GMT
Its a piece of shit news paper which is wrote, read and supported by a few do gooders hell bent on making every English mans life a misery. This is correct
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Post by stokeramblers on Jun 19, 2012 9:52:25 GMT
All this talk about the crusades is irrelevant though. Surely they are dressing up as St.George not crusaders? Two completely different things. He has just chosen to see Crusaders where there are none.
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Post by chinesedave on Jun 19, 2012 9:54:11 GMT
Can you be an English Pakistani? I don't think so, but then if I think that does that make me a racist? H Where's Norman Tebbit when you need him... ???
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Post by foster on Jun 19, 2012 9:59:34 GMT
What a load of old shit. The same posters with the same ignorant opinions. Aside from his questionable slant on the Crusades and pissed up blokes dressed as Knights surely the most significant part of this blokes article is the stuff on his personal experiences. Very depressing reading and some of the posts on here don't make it any less so. Please enlighten us with your opinion. Instead of labelling them ignorant posts please address the posts you think are ignorant and tell us why you think they are so and what you think is right. H I think it's ignorant that this thread has even continued. It's clear as day that people of any religion can support England and in this case 'Do' support England. Just because one person has written an article we then get the same generalist responses we see in every other similar thread. Responses that have nothing to do with Football. Why Davef hasn't closed this thread already is beyond me. He must be off having an extended wank break or something.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Jun 19, 2012 10:00:27 GMT
Has anyone said I'm not racist as I have black/Asian friends yet?
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Post by stokeramblers on Jun 19, 2012 10:01:03 GMT
Please enlighten us with your opinion. Instead of labelling them ignorant posts please address the posts you think are ignorant and tell us why you think they are so and what you think is right. H I think it's ignorant that this thread has even continued. It's clear as day that people of any religion can support England and in this case 'Do' support England. Just because one person has written an article we then get the same generalist responses we see in every other similar thread. Responses that have nothing to do with Football. Why Davef hasn't closed this thread already is beyond me. He must be off having an extended wank break or something. Is there way you can delete your own thread? I'd be quite happy to do that as this thread has clearly run it's course and descended into the usual melee
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:04:53 GMT
What a load of old shit. The same posters with the same ignorant opinions. Aside from his questionable slant on the Crusades and pissed up blokes dressed as Knights surely the most significant part of this blokes article is the stuff on his personal experiences. Very depressing reading and some of the posts on here don't make it any less so. to be fair foxy i would say that the fact that the writer himself only attributed three lines to his own personal experiences whilst concentrating heavily on the crusades argument in itself shows that for him, the significant part of this article IS related to the crusades. it isn't really fair of you to therefore slate others on this board because they are pointing out that, if nothing else, he is actually not just questionable but completely factually incorrect! HE only made a very brief mention of his experiences and didn't seem too traumatised by it; he simply said they were less than welcoming, i'm pretty sure if he had been horrified or mentally scarred by it he would have made a point of telling us this but i don't see why you feel the need to fight his corner and decide that no-one should disagree with him because of his treatment (which no-one would deny is wrong) when he himself didn't think it merited more than a very tiny part in his article.if he wants to take a stance against this then fine (although he doesn't strike me as being too upset by it) but don't go around doing it for him and dismissing very valid arguments by people on here simply because you feel the need to fight for him and decide that if anyone disagrees with him then they are ignorant to his plight etc. I'm not slating anyone for what they say re. his slant on the Crusades. I say above his views are "questionable". Let me qualify by saying the most significant part of his article FROM MY POINT OF VIEW is his reference to his personal experiences. Having seen that kind of stuff at first hand that's what I find depressing. I feel no need to fight for him, I just don't like reading ignorant, borderline racist comments. If we are going to have an argument Mick can we at least get it clear now what we are going to argue about because whenever I argue with you I end up forgetting what I was originally arguing about.
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Post by foster on Jun 19, 2012 10:08:26 GMT
to be fair foxy i would say that the fact that the writer himself only attributed three lines to his own personal experiences whilst concentrating heavily on the crusades argument in itself shows that for him, the significant part of this article IS related to the crusades. it isn't really fair of you to therefore slate others on this board because they are pointing out that, if nothing else, he is actually not just questionable but completely factually incorrect! HE only made a very brief mention of his experiences and didn't seem too traumatised by it; he simply said they were less than welcoming, i'm pretty sure if he had been horrified or mentally scarred by it he would have made a point of telling us this but i don't see why you feel the need to fight his corner and decide that no-one should disagree with him because of his treatment (which no-one would deny is wrong) when he himself didn't think it merited more than a very tiny part in his article.if he wants to take a stance against this then fine (although he doesn't strike me as being too upset by it) but don't go around doing it for him and dismissing very valid arguments by people on here simply because you feel the need to fight for him and decide that if anyone disagrees with him then they are ignorant to his plight etc. I'm not slating anyone for what they say re. his slant on the Crusades. I say above his views are "questionable". Let me qualify by saying the most significant part of his article FROM MY POINT OF VIEW is his reference to his personal experiences. Having seen that kind of stuff at first hand that's what I find depressing. I feel no need to fight for him, I just don't like reading ignorant, borderline racist comments. If we are going to have an argument Mick can we at least get it clear now what we are going to argue about because whenever I argue with you I end up forgetting what I was originally arguing about. Mick seems to have suffered from 'selective post reading' syndrome.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2012 10:11:55 GMT
not at all foster, i merely said that it is unfair for foxy to concentrate on something that the writer himself spends very little time even mentioning and therefore accusing people of being "ignorant" towards this issue. most on here have commented on the crusades issue as that is the main bulk of the writer's argument. it is foxy that is being selective as he has decided that people are ignorant for not focussing on just three lines in the article.to be honest i havnt really seen many "borderline racist comments" on this thread.people stating that his stance of being a muslim and an english fan (which he doesn't actually say is difficult because of what happened to him anyway,he clearly states that he finds it hard BECAUSE of the outfits and what they represent, he merely indicates that his treatment wasn't particularly nice) is being oversensitive because of the factual inaccuracies he has given is celarly ridiculous is not being racist at all.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:14:29 GMT
What a load of old shit. The same posters with the same ignorant opinions. Aside from his questionable slant on the Crusades and pissed up blokes dressed as Knights surely the most significant part of this blokes article is the stuff on his personal experiences. Very depressing reading and some of the posts on here don't make it any less so. Please enlighten us with your opinion. Instead of labelling them ignorant posts please address the posts you think are ignorant and tell us why you think they are so and what you think is right. H Were they better days than today when "wogs" can abuse us in our streets and nobody says a thing. FFS this country is absolutely knackered most can all see the problems but all to repressed and frightened to say what they are and sort them out. There is a saying about calling a spade a spade where has freedom of speech gone to ? as for the thread well if a dog is born in a stable is he therefore entitled to be called a horse.What choices do the people of Syria enjoy? If I want to dress as a crusader,drink lots of alcohol ,while munching a sausage roll I will , Im not doing it to offend anyone .the fact is Muslims would love to have sharia law in this country I loath there arrogance I'm not remotely interested . I'm not interested in them , their religion ,their clothes , their culture , their food or arranged marriages.
Like wise , they feel the same. I don't care a flying fuck what he thinks! Cunts like him will continue to fuck this country over as long as the pc dogooders let them. So basically the country is fucked!Theres a selection mate. I can't really be arsed to say why I think they are ignorant. Some more so than others. I just generally dislike labelling all people of a religion, colour, race, etc as the same. I know/have known a good few Muslims. All different and all unique. Some were twats, some were sound. Just like the "English" people I know/have known.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:16:50 GMT
not at all foster, i merely said that it is unfair for foxy to concentrate on something that the writer himself spends very little time even mentioning and therefore accusing people of being "ignorant" towards this issue. most on here have commented on the crusades issue as that is the main bulk of the writer's argument. it is foxy that is being selective as he has decided that people are ignorant for not focussing on just three lines in the article. FFS mate, you just love a good argument don't you. I can't be arsed TBH because I really dunno what you're getting at.
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Post by RAF on Jun 19, 2012 10:22:38 GMT
Please enlighten us with your opinion. Instead of labelling them ignorant posts please address the posts you think are ignorant and tell us why you think they are so and what you think is right. H Were they better days than today when "wogs" can abuse us in our streets and nobody says a thing. FFS this country is absolutely knackered most can all see the problems but all to repressed and frightened to say what they are and sort them out. There is a saying about calling a spade a spade where has freedom of speech gone to ? as for the thread well if a dog is born in a stable is he therefore entitled to be called a horse.What choices do the people of Syria enjoy? If I want to dress as a crusader,drink lots of alcohol ,while munching a sausage roll I will , Im not doing it to offend anyone .the fact is Muslims would love to have sharia law in this country I loath there arrogance I'm not remotely interested . I'm not interested in them , their religion ,their clothes , their culture , their food or arranged marriages.
Like wise , they feel the same. I don't care a flying fuck what he thinks! Cunts like him will continue to fuck this country over as long as the pc dogooders let them. So basically the country is fucked!Theres a selection mate. I can't really be arsed to say why I think they are ignorant. Some more so than others. I just generally dislike labelling all people of a religion, colour, race, etc as the same. I know/have known a good few Muslims. All different and all unique. Some were twats, some were sound. Just like the "English" people I know/have known. Well I have to say I missed the first one, which let's face it speaks for itself. How that hasn't been removed I have no idea. I think there is an element of truth in the second one, even though it will be from the extremists. The third is an opinion he is entitled to I suppose. I don't think it's ignorant, just a bit sad. And there isn't much I can disagree with you about the 4th. H
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:28:14 GMT
Were they better days than today when "wogs" can abuse us in our streets and nobody says a thing. FFS this country is absolutely knackered most can all see the problems but all to repressed and frightened to say what they are and sort them out. There is a saying about calling a spade a spade where has freedom of speech gone to ? as for the thread well if a dog is born in a stable is he therefore entitled to be called a horse.What choices do the people of Syria enjoy? If I want to dress as a crusader,drink lots of alcohol ,while munching a sausage roll I will , Im not doing it to offend anyone .the fact is Muslims would love to have sharia law in this country I loath there arrogance I'm not remotely interested . I'm not interested in them , their religion ,their clothes , their culture , their food or arranged marriages.
Like wise , they feel the same. I don't care a flying fuck what he thinks! Cunts like him will continue to fuck this country over as long as the pc dogooders let them. So basically the country is fucked!Theres a selection mate. I can't really be arsed to say why I think they are ignorant. Some more so than others. I just generally dislike labelling all people of a religion, colour, race, etc as the same. I know/have known a good few Muslims. All different and all unique. Some were twats, some were sound. Just like the "English" people I know/have known. Well I have to say I missed the first one, which let's face it speaks for itself. How that hasn't been removed I have no idea. I think there is an element of truth in the second one, even though it will be from the extremists. The third is an opinion he is entitled to I suppose. I don't think it's ignorant, just a bit sad. And there isn't much I can disagree with you about the 4th. H TBH mate I'm not really that offended or annoyed by most of the posts on this thread and it's good to see the vast majority have moved out of the Dark Ages. In many ways the UK and particularly England is a great example of how different cultures can live together without trying to wipe each other out. We have a lot to be proud of in that respect. It just gets to me when I read dumb posts from otherwise seemingly intelligent people. Anyway this is a footy forum and I should maybe stick to that (seeing as I know so much about it!!!!).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2012 10:30:56 GMT
not at all foster, i merely said that it is unfair for foxy to concentrate on something that the writer himself spends very little time even mentioning and therefore accusing people of being "ignorant" towards this issue. most on here have commented on the crusades issue as that is the main bulk of the writer's argument. it is foxy that is being selective as he has decided that people are ignorant for not focussing on just three lines in the article. FFS mate, you just love a good argument don't you. I can't be arsed TBH because I really dunno what you're getting at. im getting at the same thing RAF is i.e. if you're going to insult people then at least have the decency to justify it rather than just presume you have the right to slag people off unquestionably. no, i don't love a good argument but this is a discussion board so surely you don't expect people to just sit back when you insult them and say nothing do you? what i also don't like is people on here nowadays who apparently can quite happily label other people as ignorant for their beliefs but when they are countered in a reasonable way you just come back and say "I can't be arsed TBH". to be fair mate if you feel you have the right to insult people then you can expect that some may want you to justify that. pretty sure the original point i made this morning simply said you don't really have the right to slag others off and unless you are going to justify it then you don't.you can't come on and say others are ignorant and then ignore everyone who disagrees with you.what kind of a discussion board would it actually be then? i actually agree (as most would) that his treatment could never be condoned but also i think (by your own admission apparently you also believe it) that you cannot judge an entire "Group" of people (race/religion/culture whatever) by the actions a minority so therefore what he suffered should not be a reason to not support a team should it as it was a minority of fans and NOT representative of the entire English support? i expect your usual "Can't be arsed because i'm allowed to insult people but if you lot do then i'll lable you as ignorant as racist" response
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Post by ohbottom on Jun 19, 2012 10:35:38 GMT
All this talk about the crusades is irrelevant though. Surely they are dressing up as St.George not crusaders? Two completely different things. He has just chosen to see Crusaders where there are none. If they were dressing up as St George they'd be dressed as a 3rd century Roman Tribune (senior army officer), not a 12th century knight. This is pedantry of the worst kind, and I apologise for it.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:35:54 GMT
FFS mate, you just love a good argument don't you. I can't be arsed TBH because I really dunno what you're getting at. im getting at the same thing RAF is i.e. if you're going to insult people then at least have the decency to justify it rather than just presume you have the right to slag people off unquestionably. no, i don't love a good argument but this is a discussion board so surely you don't expect people to just sit back when you insult them and say nothing do you? what i also don't like is people on here nowadays who apparently can quite happily label other people as ignorant for their beliefs but when they are countered in a reasonable way you just come back and say "I can't be arsed TBH". to be fair mate if you feel you have the right to insult people then you can expect that some may want you to justify that. pretty sure the original point i made this morning simply said you don't really have the right to slag others off and unless you are going to justify it then you don't.you can't come on and say others are ignorant and then ignore everyone who disagrees with you.what kind of a discussion board would it actually be then? i actually agree (as most would) that his treatment could never be condoned but also i think (by your own admission apparently you also believe it) that you cannot judge an entire "Group" of people (race/religion/culture whatever) by the actions a minority so therefore what he suffered should not be a reason to not support a team should it as it was a minority of fans and NOT representative of the entire English support? i expect your usual "Can't be arsed because i'm allowed to insult people but if you lot do then i'll lable you as ignorant as racist" response You win......again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2012 10:40:42 GMT
its not a case of winning foxy at all, i enjoy a bit of back and forth and if you remember earlier in the thread i asked you genuinely which parts you agreed with and didn't come back with a response because i thought "Ok fair point".there are points i agree with with posters and some i don't but as long as they back with up with a reason then cool i have no problem as it's their opinion and we all have different ones.
tell you what, you don't like it when people lump everyone of a race/culture into one bracket because of the actions of others (which i agree with) and i just don't like the general insulting on this board nowadays simply because people disagree with them (which i have commented on quite a few times on other threads as i personally think it's ruining the board nowadays and know plenty of people who don't bother on here anymore because of it) and you just got caught in the crossfire so my apologies for that!
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:46:51 GMT
its not a case of winning foxy at all, i enjoy a bit of back and forth and if you remember earlier in the thread i asked you genuinely which parts you agreed with and didn't come back with a response because i thought "Ok fair point".there are points i agree with with posters and some i don't but as long as they back with up with a reason then cool i have no problem as it's their opinion and we all have different ones (which is why discussion boards exist) all i'm saying is that it's a bit unfair to label people as something and to not expect to have to justify it and when they ask for it just say "I can't be arsed". I don't type as fast as you. I'm not being arsey mate, just get a headache when I get caught up in these big debates. You do make a good point re. labelleing people as ignorant. I do see the hypocrisy in my comments. Anyway, my mind is pre-occupied with the match tonight. Nerves are kicking in which is very strange for me with an England game. And I'm not Muslim before you ask
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WurstBoy
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Post by WurstBoy on Jun 19, 2012 10:47:34 GMT
Religion of any creed is no longer required in our society. It was invented out of ignorance, hijacked and abused by megalomaniacs and was and still is used as a form of mass population control and a tool for inciting hatred.
As such to claim to be offended by anything as being against your religion is utterly absurd. Religion is an abstract concept and ultimately totally flawed.
There is no God, there is no Allah, there are no other physical or etheral beings that are gods - whilst there may have been a human being named Jesus walking around in Israel two thousand years ago - he was not the son of God. Mary was not a virgin mother. Moses did not part the red sea. Mohammed did not ride a flying horse- and don't get me started on Buddha or Ganesh either.
There. I said it. Prove me wrong.
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Post by stokeramblers on Jun 19, 2012 10:47:56 GMT
All this talk about the crusades is irrelevant though. Surely they are dressing up as St.George not crusaders? Two completely different things. He has just chosen to see Crusaders where there are none. If they were dressing up as St George they'd be dressed as a 3rd century Roman Tribune (senior army officer), not a 12th century knight. This is pedantry of the worst kind, and I apologise for it. ;D it's ok but I doubt the average England fan would know that. Maybe that's the problem, the author of the article is perplexed as to why they are not dressed as a 3rd century Roman Tribunes. ;D
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Post by foxysgloves on Jun 19, 2012 10:51:06 GMT
Religion of any creed is no longer required in our society. It was invented out of ignorance, hijacked and abused by megalomaniacs and was and still is used as a form of mass population control and a tool for inciting hatred. As such to claim to be offended by anything as being against your religion is utterly absurd. Religion is an abstract concept and ultimately totally flawed. There is no God, there is no Allah, there are no other physical or etheral beings that are gods - whilst there may have been a human being named Jesus walking around in Israel two thousand years ago - he was not the son of God. Mary was not a virgin mother. Moses did not part the red sea. Mohammed did not ride a flying horse. There. I said it. Prove me wrong. There is no God but Fuller and Ricardo is his name. Hope that doesn't offend any Muslims
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2012 10:51:43 GMT
its not a case of winning foxy at all, i enjoy a bit of back and forth and if you remember earlier in the thread i asked you genuinely which parts you agreed with and didn't come back with a response because i thought "Ok fair point".there are points i agree with with posters and some i don't but as long as they back with up with a reason then cool i have no problem as it's their opinion and we all have different ones (which is why discussion boards exist) all i'm saying is that it's a bit unfair to label people as something and to not expect to have to justify it and when they ask for it just say "I can't be arsed". I don't type as fast as you. I'm not being arsey mate, just get a headache when I get caught up in these big debates. You do make a good point re. labelleing people as ignorant. I do see the hypocrisy in my comments. Anyway, my mind is pre-occupied with the match tonight. Nerves are kicking in which is very strange for me with an England game. And I'm not Muslim before you ask i have also modified my original post which you quote above to apologise too know what you mean about the match, shall we just get a room, watch it together and make up (if you say no then you're homophobic ) ;D
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