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Post by wuzza on Apr 6, 2012 10:13:06 GMT
A big part of our success has been down to the attitude and professionalism of the players TP has employed - Rory and Mama being great examples. They have developed a certain ethos at the club and that is what the manager is keen to maintain - hence he wants their back up in the coaching staff. Makes absolute sense to me - I dont think many Premier League players are actually taught new skills (they have all that already) instead coaches are people who work out how to utilise those skills to maximum effect and who make sure the mind-set of the team is good.(This is also why the crap Pennant seems to have been involved in this year is unacceptable)
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Post by fca47 on Apr 6, 2012 10:14:13 GMT
A few but not many, doesn't that mean we have to improve it?
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Post by RAF on Apr 6, 2012 10:16:00 GMT
A simple question; How many current Prem players came through the Academy at SCFC? Another simple question. Why is that do you think? H |
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Post by fca47 on Apr 6, 2012 10:16:14 GMT
Wuzza - we are talking about people who are coaching youngsters, who are young enough to learn new skills, not first team coaches.
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Post by march4 on Apr 6, 2012 10:20:17 GMT
A simple question; How many current Prem players came through the Academy at SCFC? Another simple question. Why is that do you think? H Answer the question please, don't evade the issue  |
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Post by wingy11 on Apr 6, 2012 10:23:56 GMT
I don't think Tony's happy with the news either, it's sounding abit like the old days where we had to sell players to pay for the ground. But now Tony's transfer budget will suffer for the new academy and you know this will happen with how he keeps mentioning the front house. To me pulis as been told you won't be getting much this year for transfers!! 6 million is a lot of money and with is rep in youngsters to tiny is a waste of money, better off improving the ground and create more revenue before we miss the boat.
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Apr 6, 2012 10:25:20 GMT
That doesn't mean he's not happy with investment in the academy though.. In fact, saying 'which is fantastic' would suggest the complete opposite. Read in context - fantastic BUT - and this but mean clearly TP not so happy imo. Maybe I'm wrong but after selling Marshall in January, sending Cuvelier on loan again and again, I can't imagine TP happy with lot of young players in the team. Amazing how people can rewrite the story to suit their own agenda As for Marshall - he was not considered good enough to push our attacking subs off the bench - therefore he would have seen very little football - not what was required according to TP And just how many times has Cuvelier been out on loan - Walsall is his first time! You just couldn't make it up? - well I guess that you can. Posters can write any deluded drivel if you want to  |
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Post by wuzza on Apr 6, 2012 10:30:07 GMT
Absolutley agree fca - and I would imagine the club will employ a multitude of coaches with a whole host of 'badges' to do that job at youth level. The ex players could operate with the pro's who they will understand, motivate and 'educate'.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 6, 2012 10:35:50 GMT
As ever with Tone, something like this is going to divide opinion.
However, as ever I believe there is some middle ground to be taken.
It's a fact that over the years our academy has massively under performed and that needs looking at. There is an argument that says the first team management doesn't focus enough on the youth system but as yet there aren't any players who have slipped the net who the finger can really be pointed at as ones we've missed out on.
Marshall and Cuvelier (who is still on the books of course) could end up being players we see leave and do well but lets not forget we took them from other club's youth set ups and weren't really our "own".
Clearly PC is desperate to see us develop some young talent at Stoke but TP is very focussed on the here and now (which is why we are in the Premier League).
There will come a point when PC will believe (as has been hinted at by Scholes) that the club needs to be more self sufficient and I imagine the development of the academy is part of that plan.
The flip side of that is Tone knowing that our squad isn't getting any younger and there is some pretty serious surgery that is required this summer.
We all know TP doesn't say anything without a good reason so perhaps the budget for this summer is about to be discussed? If so its maybe a little nudge prior to his meeting with PC that we will need to spend relatively big again this pre season.
Tone knows that the academy hasn't really produced a great deal but hopefully he can see the possible benefits of the investment should we all buy into the proposal.
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Post by jstoke7 on Apr 6, 2012 10:36:10 GMT
I agree with the OP. whilst he says it's fantastic, it's not exactly convincing is it? For every positive he gives an alternate point of view.
If this happened at any other club the manager would be singing the praises of the club, and not putting any negatives on it.
He's not exactly going to say its not good for the club when it's Coates' etc idea is he?
He's clearly skeptical about it I don't think you could deny that.
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Post by th05 on Apr 6, 2012 10:40:43 GMT
Think the reason he'd want the likes of Higg and Rory involved is down to the fact that they know the club inside out, and know how TP likes things done. Hiring supposedly well qualified outsiders is more difficult as they are likely to have their own vision as to how it should be run.
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Post by wuzza on Apr 6, 2012 10:43:45 GMT
The point TP is making is that the majority of our 'budget' must be spent on the here and now and if its isnt we will lose the very thing that allows us to develop in other areas - its so obvious its untrue. Unless of course people are happy with the prospect of us falling down the leagues on the promise of some uncertain golden future based on young talent (who would probably move on anyway if they were exceptionally good.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Apr 6, 2012 10:47:23 GMT
Tony Pulis has been the manager of our football club for ten years. He is not some new through the door manager who is desperately trying to turn around some sort of crisis point and needs to reshape the squad (or shouldnt be). He isnt in the world of many managers where he is living day to day on the next result.
He is the very well funded manager of our football club and has been left free to spend many millions of pounds to stabalise and cement our position in the Premier League. We are not little Stoke battling against the odds anymore. We are a football club that has been on the gravy train for four seasons with a fifth one a certainty. We have a very wealthy chairman who has always been prepared to supplement Premier League income with millions of pounds of his money to now make us one of the most financially stable and well funded mid-tier Premier League clubs.
Given all that it can be expected our secure as houses manager would feel comfortable with looking on a rather more distant horizon than how much he can blow on transfer fees for experienced workhorses in the summer transfer window. Looking to the longer term future of the football club is the responsibility of the Chairman, the Board and the senior management.
Unfortunately we are saddled with a situation where only the directors of the club understand what is required. We are blessed with a manager who has not the vision or capacity to contemplate anything other than getting to forty points by hook and by crook each and every season. His bandwidth thinking and vision is limited to this one goal. At the highest level of football in the country with the fabulous rewards paid to Premier League managers you expect much more breadth and ability.
If this latest statement was in isolation then you could dismiss it as being fairly bland. However it is one of a string of words and more importantly actions that tellyou that Tony Pulis has not the intent or capability to take on board what needs to be put into place to safeguard the future of our football club.
He makes sure that nothing happens at the Academy without his knowledge and interference and has done so for the last ten years.
He has only been excluded from appointing the senior management and coaches on one occasion which saw Steve Holland appointed. Ask Steve Holland how difficult Pulis tried to make that. All other appointments have been Pulis mates and aquaintances. That ten years have yielded Ryan Shotton. A potentially outstanding defender who Pulis claims is a winger. His understanding and commitment to the longer term future of the club has been little more than to give jobs to the Sam's, Aidies and so ons of this world.
His latest statement has to be put in the context of his previous treatment of the subject. To not do so is denial.
The football club cannot hope to have a long term future at this level operating oin the way it has for the last five years unless it either draws forty thousand crowds every week or it supplements the squad with quality home grow.
Does anyone doubt there are top drawer managers and coaches the world over capable of delivering the full top flight package you would expect at Premier League level who would knock St Peter's door down to work with the advantages Tony Pulis has.
It is about the club not slavish devotion to a manager.
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Post by wuzza on Apr 6, 2012 10:52:51 GMT
All well and good Mark but you cannot dismiss that '40 points a season' quite so casually. It is THE major issue and it doesnt happen easily. I'll take a manager that can do that despite whatever other faults might come with him.
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Post by knowingeye on Apr 6, 2012 10:54:56 GMT
"Pulis said new Academy facilities at the club's Clayton Wood training complex should give Stoke rich pickings among the region's best young talent."
Translated this means:- "So he will continue to recruit from abroad, far and wide, ignoring the region's local talent".
Pulis tried unsuccessfully to close the Academy previously and only the determination of Peter Coates and Phil Rawlins stopped Pulis doing so, and building on Keith Leighton's work with the commitment of Noel Blake, Gordon Bennett and others, most of whom left when Pulis was renamed as manager.
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Post by cousindupree on Apr 6, 2012 11:08:57 GMT
There is no doubt TP's success has been forged out of his dogged determination and unswerving focus on keeping us in the Prem. Its hard to argue about that objective, long term participation in this league is the major foundation that allows us to progress as a top flight club. Without this security the academy project would not happen and PC would have serious doubts about the continued funding in the transfer market.
But surely there are serious doubts about whether the current manager is the right person to have the ultimate responsibility of the running of the academy. His comments although hardly negative seem to suggest there may be a conflict of interest with the manager so firmly focussed on the here and now.
If we are to entice the best young talent its not just the facilities that are important but also the fact that we have some of the best coaches onboard. We also have to show proof that young players are given a chance to progress and actually show evidence that this is happening. Its crucial that the whole project is not compromised by conflicting objectives.
Coates needs to keep this project as far away from TP as possible and let TP and the Director of the Academy vie for their specific budgets with PC deciding how best his investment can be used.
The manager clearly will struggle to accept this scenario. But for me it fundamental to the success of the Academy.
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Post by march4 on Apr 6, 2012 11:11:34 GMT
The part of this that interests me is the hint at future staffing.
Salif has been pencilled in to look after the players in the key phase between Academy and first team. Now Higgy, Rory & Carlo have been pencilled in to work at the School of Excellence.
Rory's Dad was a successful Secondary school Headteacher. I wonder if he will be put in charge.
TP is going to trust the opinions of his own people I would have thought.
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Post by fortressbritannia on Apr 6, 2012 11:15:01 GMT
As ever with Tone, something like this is going to divide opinion. However, as ever I believe there is some middle ground to be taken. It's a fact that over the years our academy has massively under performed and that needs looking at. There is an argument that says the first team management doesn't focus enough on the youth system but as yet there aren't any players who have slipped the net who the finger can really be pointed at as ones we've missed out on. Marshall and Cuvelier (who is still on the books of course) could end up being players we see leave and do well but lets not forget we took them from other club's youth set ups and weren't really our "own". Clearly PC is desperate to see us develop some young talent at Stoke but TP is very focussed on the here and now (which is why we are in the Premier League). There will come a point when PC will believe (as has been hinted at by Scholes) that the club needs to be more self sufficient and I imagine the development of the academy is part of that plan. The flip side of that is Tone knowing that our squad isn't getting any younger and there is some pretty serious surgery that is required this summer. We all know TP doesn't say anything without a good reason so perhaps the budget for this summer is about to be discussed? If so its maybe a little nudge prior to his meeting with PC that we will need to spend relatively big again this pre season. Tone knows that the academy hasn't really produced a great deal but hopefully he can see the possible benefits of the investment should we all buy into the proposal. That's spot on our acedemy hasn't really been churning out any talent |
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Post by tilstone on Apr 6, 2012 11:25:00 GMT
6 million cheaper then Kenwyne Jones
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Post by alster on Apr 6, 2012 11:26:45 GMT
There is no doubt TP's success has been forged out of his dogged determination and unswerving focus on keeping us in the Prem. Its hard to argue about that objective, long term participation in this league is the major foundation that allows us to progress as a top flight club. Without this security the academy project would not happen and PC would have serious doubts about the continued funding in the transfer market. But surely there are serious doubts about whether the current manager is the right person to have the ultimate responsibility of the running of the academy. His comments although hardly negative seem to suggest there may be a conflict of interest with the manager so firmly focussed on the here and now. If we are to entice the best young talent its not just the facilities that are important but also the fact that we have some of the best coaches onboard. We also have to show proof that young players are given a chance to progress and actually show evidence that this is happening. Its crucial that the whole project is not compromised by conflicting objectives. Coates needs to keep this project as far away from TP as possible and let TP and the Director of the Academy vie for their specific budgets with PC deciding how best his investment can be used. The manager clearly will struggle to accept this scenario. But for me it fundamental to the success of the Academy. Dead right Pulis hasn't ever shown any enthusiasm for blooding young players and giving them their breakthrough. His influence in this venture needs to be absolutley minimal. This has to be run separatley preparing the ground for employing a manager who'll actually use it. |
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Post by march4 on Apr 6, 2012 11:35:31 GMT
6 million cheaper then Kenwyne Jones More fantasy numbers!!!!! |
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Post by Do it for dobing on Apr 6, 2012 11:36:21 GMT
Tony Pulis has been the manager of our football club for ten years. He is not some new through the door manager who is desperately trying to turn around some sort of crisis point and needs to reshape the squad (or shouldnt be). He isnt in the world of many managers where he is living day to day on the next result. He is the very well funded manager of our football club and has been left free to spend many millions of pounds to stabalise and cement our position in the Premier League. We are not little Stoke battling against the odds anymore. We are a football club that has been on the gravy train for four seasons with a fifth one a certainty. We have a very wealthy chairman who has always been prepared to supplement Premier League income with millions of pounds of his money to now make us one of the most financially stable and well funded mid-tier Premier League clubs. Given all that it can be expected our secure as houses manager would feel comfortable with looking on a rather more distant horizon than how much he can blow on transfer fees for experienced workhorses in the summer transfer window. Looking to the longer term future of the football club is the responsibility of the Chairman, the Board and the senior management. Unfortunately we are saddled with a situation where only the directors of the club understand what is required. We are blessed with a manager who has not the vision or capacity to contemplate anything other than getting to forty points by hook and by crook each and every season. His bandwidth thinking and vision is limited to this one goal. At the highest level of football in the country with the fabulous rewards paid to Premier League managers you expect much more breadth and ability. If this latest statement was in isolation then you could dismiss it as being fairly bland. However it is one of a string of words and more importantly actions that tellyou that Tony Pulis has not the intent or capability to take on board what needs to be put into place to safeguard the future of our football club. He makes sure that nothing happens at the Academy without his knowledge and interference and has done so for the last ten years. He has only been excluded from appointing the senior management and coaches on one occasion which saw Steve Holland appointed. Ask Steve Holland how difficult Pulis tried to make that. All other appointments have been Pulis mates and aquaintances. That ten years have yielded Ryan Shotton. A potentially outstanding defender who Pulis claims is a winger. His understanding and commitment to the longer term future of the club has been little more than to give jobs to the Sam's, Aidies and so ons of this world. His latest statement has to be put in the context of his previous treatment of the subject. To not do so is denial. The football club cannot hope to have a long term future at this level operating oin the way it has for the last five years unless it either draws forty thousand crowds every week or it supplements the squad with quality home grow. Does anyone doubt there are top drawer managers and coaches the world over capable of delivering the full top flight package you would expect at Premier League level who would knock St Peter's door down to work with the advantages Tony Pulis has. It is about the club not slavish devotion to a manager. It's quite obvious that TP is not your favorite manager of Stoke by reading most of your posts which almost always find criticism on what ever he says or does. To comment that he signs and blows money on experienced work horses.Crouch ,Palacios and Jerome were his last signings ,I think they are not what you infer! The main reason that we are able to reinvest in players and the club in general is the longevity of our stay in the Premiership and the confidence the board must have in the future short and long term Any leader of a business or football club needs people around him who trust his judgement ,he obviously feels comfortable with Kemp ,Francis and Connor and they do with him This year he has played Wilkinson and Shotton regularly despite this message board demanding Pennant to play ,you cannot have it both ways The future of Stoke is so good yet many on this board continue to knock the management at every opportunity.Things are so much better now than 10 years ago ,I'm sure a trophy will be ours in the next few years and more trips to Europe Wigan was diabolical and players and management let us down but lets get back on track tomorrow |
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Post by dadofsam on Apr 6, 2012 11:40:50 GMT
and isn't it true that Tone was going to sell / release Shotton and Wilko until 'asked' not to by Sir Peter?
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Post by march4 on Apr 6, 2012 11:42:45 GMT
and isn't it true that Tone was going to sell / release Shotton and Wilko until 'asked' not to by Sir Peter? Is it? |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Apr 6, 2012 11:47:40 GMT
I dont think that this means he is unhappy as such but it does raise a long term issue for the club.
If you have a good youth academy you need to give youth a chance and TP is not that type of manager, much more preferring the safety of experience and what he knows .
The two simply dont fit together long term unless TP is prepared to change
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Post by march4 on Apr 6, 2012 11:49:25 GMT
I dont think that this means he is unhappy as such but it does raise a long term issue for the club. If you have a good youth academy you need to give youth a chance and TP is not that type of manager, much more preferring the safety of experience and what he knows . The two simply dont fit together long term unless TP is prepared to change TP has brought through Wilko and Shotts. Who else is there? I asked a question an hour ago and no one has answered it yet. How many current Prem players were in the Academy at SCFC? |
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Post by bettyswallox on Apr 6, 2012 11:52:56 GMT
Tony Pulis has been the manager of our football club for ten years. He is not some new through the door manager who is desperately trying to turn around some sort of crisis point and needs to reshape the squad (or shouldnt be). He isnt in the world of many managers where he is living day to day on the next result. He is the very well funded manager of our football club and has been left free to spend many millions of pounds to stabalise and cement our position in the Premier League. We are not little Stoke battling against the odds anymore. We are a football club that has been on the gravy train for four seasons with a fifth one a certainty. We have a very wealthy chairman who has always been prepared to supplement Premier League income with millions of pounds of his money to now make us one of the most financially stable and well funded mid-tier Premier League clubs. Given all that it can be expected our secure as houses manager would feel comfortable with looking on a rather more distant horizon than how much he can blow on transfer fees for experienced workhorses in the summer transfer window. Looking to the longer term future of the football club is the responsibility of the Chairman, the Board and the senior management. Unfortunately we are saddled with a situation where only the directors of the club understand what is required. We are blessed with a manager who has not the vision or capacity to contemplate anything other than getting to forty points by hook and by crook each and every season. His bandwidth thinking and vision is limited to this one goal. At the highest level of football in the country with the fabulous rewards paid to Premier League managers you expect much more breadth and ability. If this latest statement was in isolation then you could dismiss it as being fairly bland. However it is one of a string of words and more importantly actions that tellyou that Tony Pulis has not the intent or capability to take on board what needs to be put into place to safeguard the future of our football club. He makes sure that nothing happens at the Academy without his knowledge and interference and has done so for the last ten years. He has only been excluded from appointing the senior management and coaches on one occasion which saw Steve Holland appointed. Ask Steve Holland how difficult Pulis tried to make that. All other appointments have been Pulis mates and aquaintances. That ten years have yielded Ryan Shotton. A potentially outstanding defender who Pulis claims is a winger. His understanding and commitment to the longer term future of the club has been little more than to give jobs to the Sam's, Aidies and so ons of this world. His latest statement has to be put in the context of his previous treatment of the subject. To not do so is denial. The football club cannot hope to have a long term future at this level operating oin the way it has for the last five years unless it either draws forty thousand crowds every week or it supplements the squad with quality home grow. Does anyone doubt there are top drawer managers and coaches the world over capable of delivering the full top flight package you would expect at Premier League level who would knock St Peter's door down to work with the advantages Tony Pulis has. It is about the club not slavish devotion to a manager. It's quite obvious that TP is not your favorite manager of Stoke by reading most of your posts which almost always find criticism on what ever he says or does. To comment that he signs and blows money on experienced work horses.Crouch ,Palacios and Jerome were his last signings ,I think they are not what you infer! The main reason that we are able to reinvest in players and the club in general is the longevity of our stay in the Premiership and the confidence the board must have in the future short and long term Any leader of a business or football club needs people around him who trust his judgement ,he obviously feels comfortable with Kemp ,Francis and Connor and they do with him This year he has played Wilkinson and Shotton regularly despite this message board demanding Pennant to play ,you cannot have it both ways The future of Stoke is so good yet many on this board continue to knock the management at every opportunity.Things are so much better now than 10 years ago ,I'm sure a trophy will be ours in the next few years and more trips to Europe Wigan was diabolical and players and management let us down but lets get back on track tomorrow Don't talk sense on here, you lunatic. |
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Post by mark71 on Apr 6, 2012 11:57:43 GMT
Pulis is as committed to youth players as he is to taking an army over to Valencia to knock them out of the Europa cup.
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Post by foxysgloves on Apr 6, 2012 11:57:58 GMT
Tony Pulis has been the manager of our football club for ten years. He is not some new through the door manager who is desperately trying to turn around some sort of crisis point and needs to reshape the squad (or shouldnt be). He isnt in the world of many managers where he is living day to day on the next result. He is the very well funded manager of our football club and has been left free to spend many millions of pounds to stabalise and cement our position in the Premier League. We are not little Stoke battling against the odds anymore. We are a football club that has been on the gravy train for four seasons with a fifth one a certainty. We have a very wealthy chairman who has always been prepared to supplement Premier League income with millions of pounds of his money to now make us one of the most financially stable and well funded mid-tier Premier League clubs. Given all that it can be expected our secure as houses manager would feel comfortable with looking on a rather more distant horizon than how much he can blow on transfer fees for experienced workhorses in the summer transfer window. Looking to the longer term future of the football club is the responsibility of the Chairman, the Board and the senior management. Unfortunately we are saddled with a situation where only the directors of the club understand what is required. We are blessed with a manager who has not the vision or capacity to contemplate anything other than getting to forty points by hook and by crook each and every season. His bandwidth thinking and vision is limited to this one goal. At the highest level of football in the country with the fabulous rewards paid to Premier League managers you expect much more breadth and ability.If this latest statement was in isolation then you could dismiss it as being fairly bland. However it is one of a string of words and more importantly actions that tellyou that Tony Pulis has not the intent or capability to take on board what needs to be put into place to safeguard the future of our football club. He makes sure that nothing happens at the Academy without his knowledge and interference and has done so for the last ten years. He has only been excluded from appointing the senior management and coaches on one occasion which saw Steve Holland appointed. Ask Steve Holland how difficult Pulis tried to make that. All other appointments have been Pulis mates and aquaintances. That ten years have yielded Ryan Shotton. A potentially outstanding defender who Pulis claims is a winger. His understanding and commitment to the longer term future of the club has been little more than to give jobs to the Sam's, Aidies and so ons of this world. His latest statement has to be put in the context of his previous treatment of the subject. To not do so is denial. The football club cannot hope to have a long term future at this level operating oin the way it has for the last five years unless it either draws forty thousand crowds every week or it supplements the squad with quality home grow. Does anyone doubt there are top drawer managers and coaches the world over capable of delivering the full top flight package you would expect at Premier League level who would knock St Peter's door down to work with the advantages Tony Pulis has. It is about the club not slavish devotion to a manager. What total and utter bollocks. Whatever your opinion on Pulis (and clearly he has upset you terribly for some reason) you can't simply peddle untruths as if they are solid facts. Yes Pulis places Premier League survival at the top of his list (as he should) but he has also given us a number of decent cup runs over the last few years. Whatever your personal agenda with TP at least stick to the facts. |
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Post by Northy on Apr 6, 2012 11:59:18 GMT
A simple question; How many current Prem players came through the Academy at SCFC? 472 I think, give or take 470 Is that SCFC, stoke City, Swansea City or Stockport County  |
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