Last night, kids footie and the Ingerlund factor

[bunnyscfc]

let me start by saying this is NOT a dig at Stoke City or TP.

It's just that watching last night, and yup we put a committed shift in, was like watching two different sports. And it all boils down to two words -

Coaching (and) Mindset.

We don't really love the ball in this country do we? From an early age, coaches puck the big kids, the boys who can put their foot in on a windy day at Trubshaw Cross. How much technical work do we do? Hmm.

I coach and under 9 team and play in a league. Er, just why is it a league system at that age? It just makes lads too competetive and take their eye completely off technique and gameplan.

is it better to win a league when you are 8 or become a better player, a more knowledgable player? How we play is an extension of kids footbll - high tempo, set pieces, tackles...exciting stuff.

Only for England, it doesn't work, does it? You;ve seen what refs are like in Europe, it's a non-tackling game - and yet we have Stuart Pearce in the England set up. High up in the England set up. It's heartbreaking to see for me.

My idea?

-No leagues for kids under 13
- why have rsults when you're 8? Just builds undue pressure, elitism, and destroys kids morale. Let them enjoy it witout worrying they'll cost their team the game
-Focus on skills, technique, awareness, loving the football
-If there are matches it should be small sided and so lads/girls get the max number of touches in a game
-don't pegieonhole kids. let them experience every single position on a pitch
-It's an art to hide on a football pitch just. We allow our kids to do it at an early age by playing match after match after match on small pitches in big numbers
- BUILD THE BLOODY NATIONAL CENTRE QUICKLY AND GET THE BEST COACHES IN

Valencia players are coached to love receiving the football and to care for what they do for it. Can anyone explain what England, Stoke and any number of teams are coached to do?

I hope every kid who watched last night will have seen how they loved the ball, every single one of them wanted it all the time. Their movement was so unbelievable. Cage, what cage?

[biganddaft]

Nail on head me thinks Bunny. Great post.

I'm 40 this year and still trying to play! albeit 5 a side, but even then I have to correct 19 year olds who are obsessed with shooting whenever they receive the ball.

I try to tell them that it's not all about scoring/winning and if they can't get back after scoring (usually blazing it over is more precise!) then they have little grasp of what it's all about.

Sadly, I think unless there are wholesale changes in peoples mindsets, we will never experience the beautiful game again.

I'm slightly embarrased to admit that I have only been to a handful of games this season. I can afford, but cannot justify to myself spending all day (and sometimes night on the beer) and in excess of £100, as I take my two lads, watching something that I don't agree with anymore.

Love Stoke, always have always will. However, our lack of ability when in posession ( usually about 20 seconds, tops) really grates me. I actually preferred it when we iwere in the lower leagues, weird, I know!

Going back to your post, as I've slightly gone on a tangent! Players do get stereotyped, so before they even kick a bloody ball, the PE teacher knows where they should be positioned on the pitch. How does that work.

People slate crouch, seen some threads on here today. But technically, he is actually a gifted lad, it's just that because he's 12ft 2 we automatically twat the ball in the air to him, every fookin time we get chance, poor tactics, even worse to watch.

Ask PC where he would like to receive the ball and I would hazard a guess that it would be on the grass.

There is a lot more to the game than just passing of course, but you have to tackle far less when you have a higher posession rate. Last night was a wake up call, or at least it should be. Valencia were stronger in every department for me, we contributed by giving them a 50-50 chance of winning the ball every time we hoofed it in the air. There is a difference in passing it long in the air and actually punting, and in many cases, hoping for the best!

Getting the ball forward quickly, as they did, sometimes on the deck, or sometimes by a long ball to a wide player, but with the emphasis on keeping the ball, was far removed from what we have been watching for a while now.

Our brand of football will probably keep us in the league for a while, gates will drop, as the entertainment value is sadly lacking.

[bunnyscfc]

In tight corners Valencia were simply outstanding. They are cute enough to know the elast they can do is draw a foul for minimal contact, so are prepared to keep hold of the ball.

I would prefer our Academy to lose every single game and develop one or two players for the first team, than win any youth cup or league.

I hear of too many pkayers all over the country let-go by clubs due to size and physique. Well Valencia played the mascot last night and he was technically outstanding. And number 7, whilst hardly ever giving the ball away stil had the physique to beat Ryan and Huthy in the air at will.

Look at Chelsea's best player - size doesn't Mata

[manchesterpotter]

Agreed.

I've done some coaching with a few teams at Uni and the majority of the players really are shocking. Very few of them have any confidence or composure - as soon as they get the ball they panic and hoof it up the pitch or attempt daft passes and lose possession. I'm fairly sure this has something to do with young kids in Sunday League and their parents shouting to "get rid of it" and other such pieces of shite from the touchline - this is drilled into our young footballers and it never leaves them. Young footballers never have encouragement to keep hold of the ball, so therefore never really sculpt much technique, skill or composure.

[PotterLog]

I read an interview recently with a foreign player (can't remember which) who was reflecting on his arrival in the English game, and how his coaches basically told him "if in doubt, kick it out." He was saying he'd never heard of such an idea. It was utterly alien and bemusing for him to be taught to kick the ball out of play.

[eranu]

I don't understand how our passing can be so poor at times. The amount of simple, short range passes that go astray is unbelievable. I have no doubt that all the players we have can pass the ball. I arent looking for a hollywood pass every time. Just nice simple passing, that allows us to keep possession and build an attack. Is that too much to ask for?

[peterthornesboots]

Agree with all of that Bunny, apart from the national centre!

The National Centre will only be useful to elite players and England youth team squads. How will it be useful to an under 9's team in Kidsgrove? Well it won't! It's just something the FA are hiding behind to try and look like they're being proactive.

The main difference in this country is coaching. Spain have 12'000 UEFA B coaches, England has just over 1,000. That tells you everything!

[Northy]

I'm not sure what league you are in Bunny but it does sound backwards, the FA's directive is that no results are published until under 11's, the mini soccer u7-u10 just play organised matches, if your league is affiliated it is in breach of FA rules.

As of the start of the 2013/14 season all U7&U8 will be 5v5, U9&U10 will be 7v7 and U11-U13 9v9, with smaller pitches to enable more touches and time on the ball etc.


The age groups for teams will be the calender year, and for schools will remain the school year, this enabling the younger/smaller kids to get more chance of getting game time.

Many County FA's have already gone to this already.

The one thing that's needed is money at grassroots level, the actual pitches and facilities to play on, this is where our talent for the future starts and gets noticed

[Alvechurch Assassin]

poncy, conservative bullshit - in my opinion

[scfcrmagic]

Agree with you Bunny....but this means for Stoke City we have to evolve ......we tried that a bit with Tunny ....who I rated !! But that type of player can't be confined in zones ....they have to be able to roam ....if one of the backs finds himself on a clear run up the pitch,
he shouldn't feel forced to look for a pass because he's out of his zone...
plus other players should have the sense to drop into his position to cover his run . School boy stuff ..

[bunnyscfc]

Feb 17, 2012 13:06:00 GMT Alvechurch Assassin said:

poncy, conservative bullshit - in my opinion

explain 45 years of the national team punching miles below their weight then please.

If it isn't the coaching, just what is it?

[Deleted]

I agree with most of the OP.

With one small proviso, if this means football becomes almost a non-contact sport and we have to put up with all the 'gamesmanship' we see from most foreign teams, I'm not sure I can embrace it wholeheartedly.

[meirsquare]

These kind of comments and views have been common ( especially regarding England) for the last 20 years plus. Nothings changed much in that sense.
As for Stoke, wtf do some of you lot expect from the lads?
You talk about what you think you should be seeing, and it sounds as if you'd be better off going to "bigger" clubs, where you will then get what you want.
Stoke are not in the same league or class as Valencia, we all knew that before last night, and it's confirmed now. I thought the team gave a good account last night, and more importantly showed a big improvement on the last several performances.
We will be okay in the league, we have overachieved in Europe and still in the FA Cup.
I'd have settled for that before the season began.
Why? Because Stoke are Stoke, not Valencia, not Barcelona, not Aresenal etc.
We are years away from getting any where near to their styles, performance etc.

[Deleted]

he did say it wasn't a dig at Stoke, mate

[Alvechurch Assassin]

Feb 17, 2012 13:38:30 GMT bunnyscfc said:

Feb 17, 2012 13:06:00 GMT Alvechurch Assassin said:

poncy, conservative bullshit - in my opinion

explain 45 years of the national team punching miles below their weight then please.

If it isn't the coaching, just what is it?

Just never bought into the philosophy of protecting kids from the dangers of wanting to win and be competitive.

I also think your ideas are fanciful, kids actually want to compete, not fanny around "learning how to love football".

I agree that the coaching needs to inprove though, but we've been saying that since the game was invented.

[bunnyscfc]

Feb 17, 2012 13:42:04 GMT @sifuluke said:

I agree with most of the OP.

With one small proviso, if this means football becomes almost a non-contact sport and we have to put up with all the 'gamesmanship' we see from most foreign teams, I'm not sure I can embrace it wholeheartedly.

agreed mate.

But valencia had it all - great skill, techique, work rate was immense, organisation and set up was fantastic.

Meirsquare, so what if it does take 20 years. We've not had a sniff in recent times. The whole culture of how kids play football should change.

[Deleted]

Feb 17, 2012 13:51:52 GMT bunnyscfc said:

Feb 17, 2012 13:42:04 GMT @sifuluke said:

I agree with most of the OP.

With one small proviso, if this means football becomes almost a non-contact sport and we have to put up with all the 'gamesmanship' we see from most foreign teams, I'm not sure I can embrace it wholeheartedly.

agreed mate.

But valencia had it all - great skill, techique, work rate was immense, organisation and set up was fantastic.

Meirsquare, so what if it does take 20 years. We've not had a sniff in recent times. The whole culture of how kids play football should change.

Yes, Valencia were excellent in every department, and that was with several of their 'first eleven' rested! Soldado and Ever for example.

What I can't understand is this. Dutch football (nationally not club) is always excellent. Spanish football (club and nationally) is excellent. Is it really not possible to go over and see how they do it and copy it? Of course not.

Which forces me to conclude that there is no real will to change anything.

[bunnyscfc]

Feb 17, 2012 13:50:21 GMT Alvechurch Assassin said:

Feb 17, 2012 13:38:30 GMT bunnyscfc said:

explain 45 years of the national team punching miles below their weight then please.

If it isn't the coaching, just what is it?

Just never bought into the philosophy of protecting kids from the dangers of wanting to win and be competitive.

I also think your ideas are fanciful, kids actually want to compete, not fanny around "learning how to love football".

I agree that the coaching needs to inprove though, but we've been saying that since the game was invented.

not to love football, but to love THE football. ie. be able to receive it and then make the correct decision what to do with it. That isn't coached anywhere near well enough and why?

because kids too young to NOT be taught technique are shioved into competetive games where winning is everything.

Noone is more competetive than me, noone likes winning more. But tghe bigger picture is this country being third world in terns of youth development.

[meirsquare]

Feb 17, 2012 13:51:52 GMT bunnyscfc said:

Feb 17, 2012 13:42:04 GMT @sifuluke said:

I agree with most of the OP.

With one small proviso, if this means football becomes almost a non-contact sport and we have to put up with all the 'gamesmanship' we see from most foreign teams, I'm not sure I can embrace it wholeheartedly.

agreed mate.

But valencia had it all - great skill, techique, work rate was immense, organisation and set up was fantastic.

Meirsquare, so what if it does take 20 years. We've not had a sniff in recent times. The whole culture of how kids play football should change.

My point regarding 20 years plus was, Nothings changed mate,
We over rate good players and put them in to a "world class" bracket and instill false hope and expectations.
The kids watch the pundits and so called experts using "world class" so cheaply and copy the characteristics, attributes, cheating of these players.
How many times do you see English players described as world class? If we really do produce so many supposed world class players, then where's the problem?
The truth is we don't, and haven't done for decades.

[bunnyscfc]

correct, sorry mate.

The media is shocking, but that's their job.

Imho, some coaches are simply stealing a living. And as for parents at their kids matches - unbelievable the garbage they spout.

And I also wonder just how qualified and what Messrs OConnor and Kemp do too. Apart from nod.

[meirsquare]

I would love Shearer, Hansen and co to just come out and say "he cheated, he dived" instead of "he was looking for contact and got the advantage for his team" or "There was slight contact there so he had every right to go down"
Kids watch this stuff and then go out and copy. There's no doubt in my mind that this sort of "cheating" is being coached too!

[RINGO STARR]

Great thread chaps and superb original post Bunny.

Do you not think that one of the problems with football, paticuarly in this country is that its become more than just a sport?

The whole game from grass-roots and junior levels right through to the Premier League is taken far too seriously and over-analyzed.

Kids get coached on how to play football from a very early age nowadays with kids aged between 7 and 10 being signed for ridiculous sums of money by football clubs. The enjoyment of the game is then lost on many kids who fear making mistakes that could jeapordize their career. Career is not a word that should enter a kids mind where football is concerned.

I have a 7 year old daughter who I just can't get into football. I also have two nephews one in their teens and the other 10 who live and breathe the game just as their Father and myself have always done. I went to watch the eldest lad play a game a few years back and was completley and utterly gobsmacked at how serious the coaches and the parents took it.

It was comedy gold.

Kids of 8 years of age being given tactical instructions from a bloke who works as a plumber in the week. Kids should be allowed to go out onto a football pitch and let the ball do the talking. When mistakes are made they should be told about them after the game in a constructive manner.

One thing i'd also add to the equation is how many kids do you see playing football these days? I mean kids playing on the local park with jumpers for goalposts. Most kids are too busy with their i-pods, ps3 and the like to go out and want to enjoy the beautiful game. I'm 30 and I sound like an old twat for saying that but thats the way I see it. I don't think kids enjoy playing football as much as previous generations do which I put down to how the game is taken too seriously.

[meirsquare]

you can't coach natural ability, you either have it or you don't!
Technical aspects, cheating, tactics.....yes, but that natural ability and awareness.....impossible.

[philm87]

Spot on. Also need to sort out the scouting. Stop looking for players that fall in the 'strong lad, big shot on him' category. Stop assuming that if a player has a beard at the age of 12 then he's still going to be better than everyone when he's 16.

[bunnyscfc]

true.

on the drive home from work I go past several football pitches and acres of spare land.

You never see kids out playing football anymore. Well I don't.

[Deleted]

I once had lunch with a bloke who was a youth coach with Ajax and he pretty much mirrored everything you've said.

He'd noticed that younger British teams were usually far bigger, quicker and more powerful than his teams and that the aim of our coaches was to try and turn our oversized meatheads into footballers.

From a purely results point of view our lads didn't fair too badly but it was common for many of our lads to never attain the high level of ball skills that were expected on the continent. In fact, many of the young teenagers that were powerfully built just got bigger and bigger and became totally unsuitable for football.

So whilst our 13 year old hulks were turning into 19 year old hellboys his smaller, more skillfull, kids were developing physically and turning into decent players.

Pulis would have probably told him to fuck off and kicked him in the nuts.

[Northy]

Feb 17, 2012 14:36:55 GMT meirsquare said:

you can't coach natural ability, you either have it or you don't!

yes you can, a young kid can have the basics but you can coach them how to do them better and also learn new ideas

[meirsquare]

Having read all this, and had a say myself, I must say that I have a sneaky feeling for a "fluke" showing by England in the Euros......semi or final...... will be a "fluke" though!

[Northy]

Feb 17, 2012 13:50:21 GMT Alvechurch Assassin said:

Feb 17, 2012 13:38:30 GMT bunnyscfc said:

explain 45 years of the national team punching miles below their weight then please.

If it isn't the coaching, just what is it?

Just never bought into the philosophy of protecting kids from the dangers of wanting to win and be competitive.

I also think your ideas are fanciful, kids actually want to compete, not fanny around "learning how to love football".

I agree that the coaching needs to inprove though, but we've been saying that since the game was invented.

There's no stopping the kids competing and winning, removing results and league tables stops the neanderthal tactics of some win at all dads/managers of a 9 year old team.

Young kids will enjoy the match, if they win 3-0 or lose 3-0 most of them aren't bothered as 5 minutes later they are knocking a ball about with their mates or asking mum if they can have a mcdonalds, it's only the coach and the odd parent who may be upset if they've lost.

I saw an U10 match a couple of years ago where a winsford team positioned a striker next to the goalkeeper as there is no offsides at mini soccer, and the tactic was to kick it as hard as they could to him, they won, but at what cost to any potential development for that team, that lad was learning nothing about team play and build up etc. ready for when they moved to 11 a side football.

[PotterLog]

Feb 17, 2012 14:51:28 GMT Northy said:

Feb 17, 2012 13:50:21 GMT Alvechurch Assassin said:

Just never bought into the philosophy of protecting kids from the dangers of wanting to win and be competitive.

I also think your ideas are fanciful, kids actually want to compete, not fanny around "learning how to love football".

I agree that the coaching needs to inprove though, but we've been saying that since the game was invented.

There's no stopping the kids competing and winning, removing results and league tables stops the neanderthal tactics of some win at all dads/managers of a 9 year old team.

Young kids will enjoy the match, if they win 3-0 or lose 3-0 most of them aren't bothered as 5 minutes later they are knocking a ball about with their mates or asking mum if they can have a mcdonalds, it's only the coach and the odd parent who may be upset if they've lost.

I saw an U10 match a couple of years ago where a winsford team positioned a striker next to the goalkeeper as there is no offsides at mini soccer, and the tactic was to kick it as hard as they could to him, they won, but at what cost to any potential development for that team, that lad was learning nothing about team play and build up etc. ready for when they moved to 11 a side football.

Exactly. How's he gonna learn the Mama role stood up there?