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Post by onionman on Sept 25, 2011 19:46:18 GMT
12 games so far this season.
We've only lost one of them, even though they've included games against Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Dynamo Kiev (away), Hajduk Split (home and away) and a trip to Switzerland.
During this time we've been cramming European games in on Thursdays before playing weekend games against teams who've had the luxury of having a week off (although our manager to his credit has not used that as an excuse).
Most of this fantastic start has been achieved with a threadbare squad.
Just a few days after 120 minutes and a penalty shoot-out against Spurs, we take on possibly the second best club side in the world and pretty much match them. A lot of older Stoke fans are saying this is our best performance since the 70s.
It's still not long since we reached our first ever FA Cup final.
And STILL, less than 24 hours after drawing with Man Utd, some whingers come on here and moan about the manager playing square pegs in round holes and being negative in the one out of 11 matches this season where things didn't go very well.
At times, the tone of some of the posting on here is so utterly begrudging of any success Pulis brings us.
We grind our way to a good result and it's: well we got a good result but where was the attacking play we all want to see?
We play fantastically against Man Utd and we get: well maybe Pulis has woken up after being a prat last week.
Pulis could win the FA Cup, Premier League, Champions League and through some loophole get Stoke to win the bloody World Cup and some would still come here and say: "Well it's about time he did what I said he should have been doing all along."
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Sept 25, 2011 19:48:11 GMT
Regarding the best centre half pairing debate.
I agree that huth and ryan are probably best ob the face of it although it is very close.
But pulis has said its the experience of upson and woody which is helping us so much. And their distribution helps too. It has definitely seemed less panicky there at times.
Its not quite as simple as saying it should defo be huth and ryan. There is a bigger picture that you have to look at.
I do agree regarding the fullback positions though and wilko for me has to be first choice right back.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Sept 25, 2011 19:51:49 GMT
You're no Kari Byron, Mark. Should that worry me?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 19:52:51 GMT
Regarding the best centre half pairing debate. I agree that huth and ryan are probably best ob the face of it although it is very close. But pulis has said its the experience of upson and woody which is helping us so much. And their distribution helps too. It has definitely seemed less panicky there at times. Its not quite as simple as saying it should defo be huth and ryan. There is a bigger picture that you have to look at. I do agree regarding the fullback positions though and wilko for me has to be first choice right back. Take the point about distribution but has it helped that much. Huth at right back is still a cause for concern despite the results and Woodgate has had some stellar games and some shockers. I don't see why it shouldn't be as simple as having Huth and Ryan as first choice and playing Woody and Upson in the cups and having them as excellent cover?
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Post by euanstokie123 on Sept 25, 2011 19:54:33 GMT
Woodgate was awful in the first half. He was well off the pace against a player who is quick, played a dreadful hand in the Utd goal, as he allowed (along with Wilson) Nani to waltz into the box right through the centre of the defence for a tap in. It was sheer woeful defending. He was lucky that on another day he didn't concede a penalty and receive a red card. He played much better in the second half once he sussed out that Owen wasn't going to trouble us at all in behind and the ineffective Berbatov just wasn't interested. I'm sorry, but he isn't a patch on Upson, who has been superb and does not deserve to be dropped. +1 upson is far better. Just no-one wants to knock woodgates reputation as "a quality defender" and "a class act"
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Sept 25, 2011 19:57:53 GMT
12 games so far this season. We've only lost one of them, even though they've included games against Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Dynamo Kiev (away), Hajduk Split (home and away) and a trip to Switzerland. During this time we've been cramming European games in on Thursdays before playing weekend games against teams who've had the luxury of having a week off (although our manager to his credit has not used that as an excuse). Most of this fantastic start has been achieved with a threadbare squad. Just a few days after 120 minutes and a penalty shoot-out against Spurs, we take on possibly the second best club side in the world and pretty much match them. A lot of older Stoke fans are saying this is our best performance since the 70s. It's still not long since we reached our first ever FA Cup final. And STILL, less than 24 hours after drawing with Man Utd, some whingers come on here and moan about the manager playing square pegs in round holes and being negative in the one out of 11 matches this season where things didn't go very well. At times, the tone of some of the posting on here is so utterly begrudging of any success Pulis brings us. We grind our way to a good result and it's: well we got a good result but where was the attacking play we all want to see? We play fantastically against Man Utd and we get: well maybe Pulis has woken up after being a prat last week. Pulis could win the FA Cup, Premier League, Champions League and through some loophole get Stoke to win the bloody World Cup and some would still come here and say: "Well it's about time he did what I said he should have been doing all along." You should read the thread before going off on such a long one. The whole tone across the message board is extremely complimentary. It is perfectly valid to demonstrate what was liked about yesterday by reference to less good moment, I just don't see the problem.
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Post by OldStokie on Sept 25, 2011 20:05:02 GMT
Good to see one or three apologist"s lines swept away in a tremendous performance. A game that was end to end at times killed for ever the notion that if we take the game to the big clubs we get thrashed. For the first time we have a real go at Man United and get our first point. The comical excuses that are made for not playing full backs in the full back positions was blown out of the water. Wilkinson in particular showed how a full back who is a full back adds a whole new dimension to our play without reducing our defensive area effectiveness. Wilkinson also stuck the proverbial two fingers up to the few who rubbish his ability in order that they may justify the manager playing square pegs in round holes. It was as good a full back display as you will see anywhere in the Premier League this season. Talking of square pegs we saw again confirmation of the impact Walters has as a central striker compared to the non-entity he is reduced to as a wide player as used the week before at Sunderland. The idea that he should be started out wide to suite a negative away game plan was exposed as nonsense. All but a couple of see no evils had already fathomed that of course. The idea that Woodgate is some sort of failed "experiment' as has been suggested recently was demolished by a further display of his international standard ability. All we need now is to stop fucking ourselves over with our away line ups and approach and we will be a real player in this league! Goodness me, if this continues our favourite band of apologists who have tried to suppress the ideas above are going to have to abandon their stock lines on here! Hopefully, Mark, our manager will draw the same conclusions. He should be patting himself on the back for having found the perfect formula, and gained as much confidence from that display as we supporters have. IMO, it was his finest day as a manager. M.
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Post by Orbs on Sept 25, 2011 20:06:35 GMT
Wow! You used "tone" and "complimentary" in the same sentence - well done....... ;D On a different note - Are these your shoes?
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Post by swampySCFC on Sept 25, 2011 20:16:13 GMT
Good to see one or three apologist"s lines swept away in a tremendous performance. A game that was end to end at times killed for ever the notion that if we take the game to the big clubs we get thrashed. For the first time we have a real go at Man United and get our first point. The comical excuses that are made for not playing full backs in the full back positions was blown out of the water. Wilkinson in particular showed how a full back who is a full back adds a whole new dimension to our play without reducing our defensive area effectiveness. Wilkinson also stuck the proverbial two fingers up to the few who rubbish his ability in order that they may justify the manager playing square pegs in round holes. It was as good a full back display as you will see anywhere in the Premier League this season. Talking of square pegs we saw again confirmation of the impact Walters has as a central striker compared to the non-entity he is reduced to as a wide player as used the week before at Sunderland. The idea that he should be started out wide to suite a negative away game plan was exposed as nonsense. All but a couple of see no evils had already fathomed that of course. The idea that Woodgate is some sort of failed "experiment' as has been suggested recently was demolished by a further display of his international standard ability. All we need now is to stop fucking ourselves over with our away line ups and approach and we will be a real player in this league! Goodness me, if this continues our favourite band of apologists who have tried to suppress the ideas above are going to have to abandon their stock lines on here! Thats a very rosy tint on Wilko and Woodgate. Wilko has got a number of games under his belt now so we shouldnt be surprised if he has a good game. in fact we demand it at this stage in his progress. regrettably this hasnt always been the case. Some would also argue that Woodgate was lucky not to give a penno away and maybe should have done more with Nani. At the end of the day we should all rejoice and accept that away games have always tended to be more difficult than home ones. end of.
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Post by onionman on Sept 25, 2011 20:17:35 GMT
I read the thread.
It read like you were so begrudging of Pulis you were trying to give him as little credit as possible for our brilliant start to the season.
But you were happy to slate him by harking back to the only match out of 12 that hasn't gone very well this season.
The whole tone across the message board is indeed extremely complimentary. To not be extremely complimentary about this start to the season, you'd need a real chip on your shoulder about something.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:18:55 GMT
Good to see one or three apologist"s lines swept away in a tremendous performance. A game that was end to end at times killed for ever the notion that if we take the game to the big clubs we get thrashed. For the first time we have a real go at Man United and get our first point. The comical excuses that are made for not playing full backs in the full back positions was blown out of the water. Wilkinson in particular showed how a full back who is a full back adds a whole new dimension to our play without reducing our defensive area effectiveness. Wilkinson also stuck the proverbial two fingers up to the few who rubbish his ability in order that they may justify the manager playing square pegs in round holes. It was as good a full back display as you will see anywhere in the Premier League this season. Talking of square pegs we saw again confirmation of the impact Walters has as a central striker compared to the non-entity he is reduced to as a wide player as used the week before at Sunderland. The idea that he should be started out wide to suite a negative away game plan was exposed as nonsense. All but a couple of see no evils had already fathomed that of course. The idea that Woodgate is some sort of failed "experiment' as has been suggested recently was demolished by a further display of his international standard ability. All we need now is to stop fucking ourselves over with our away line ups and approach and we will be a real player in this league! Goodness me, if this continues our favourite band of apologists who have tried to suppress the ideas above are going to have to abandon their stock lines on here! Thats a very rosy tint on Wilko and Woodgate. Wilko has got a number of games under his belt now so we shouldnt be surprised if he has a good game. in fact we demand it at this stage in his progress. regrettably this hasnt always been the case. Some would also argue that Woodgate was lucky not to give a penno away and maybe should have done more with Nani. At the end of the day we should all rejoice and accept that away games have always tended to be more difficult than home ones. end of. It's not so much that Wilko had a good game, but more the difference that playing a proper right back makes to our play. We don't lose anything at the back (we're arguably better defensively as a result) and look a lot more fluid in attack.
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Sept 25, 2011 20:20:32 GMT
Regarding the best centre half pairing debate. I agree that huth and ryan are probably best ob the face of it although it is very close. But pulis has said its the experience of upson and woody which is helping us so much. And their distribution helps too. It has definitely seemed less panicky there at times. Its not quite as simple as saying it should defo be huth and ryan. There is a bigger picture that you have to look at. I do agree regarding the fullback positions though and wilko for me has to be first choice right back. Take the point about distribution but has it helped that much. Huth at right back is still a cause for concern despite the results and Woodgate has had some stellar games and some shockers. I don't see why it shouldn't be as simple as having Huth and Ryan as first choice and playing Woody and Upson in the cups and having them as excellent cover? i don't think it's quite that simple because Pulis has stated that it's the experience and vocal assets that both Woody and Upson have brought to the table which he is so impressed with. Huth had an amazing season last year and is a cracking defender. But there is a case that we are more composed with someone more experienced alongside Ryan. The better distribution also helps with that too. All of that said though, i do agree that we are better without Huth at right back. We have 4 excellent centre backs and it's a better problem to have than 4 poor ones.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:21:26 GMT
I read the thread. It read like you were so begrudging of Pulis you were trying to give him as little credit as possible for our brilliant start to the season. But you were happy to slate him by harking back to the only match out of 12 that hasn't gone very well this season. The whole tone across the message board is indeed extremely complimentary. To not be extremely complimentary about this start to the season, you'd need a real chip on your shoulder about something. The results in those 12 games were good but the performances flagged up plenty of flaws that came home to roost last weekend. Yesterday it looked as if the manager had recognised that and ironed it out. I don't always agree with Mark's stance on TP but I thought he was positive and very fair in his original post.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:22:07 GMT
I read the thread. It read like you were so begrudging of Pulis you were trying to give him as little credit as possible for our brilliant start to the season. But you were happy to slate him by harking back to the only match out of 12 that hasn't gone very well this season. The whole tone across the message board is indeed extremely complimentary. To not be extremely complimentary about this start to the season, you'd need a real chip on your shoulder about something. Thats exactly how i read as well mate so we can't all be wrong can we?
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Post by swampySCFC on Sept 25, 2011 20:22:18 GMT
Thats a very rosy tint on Wilko and Woodgate. Wilko has got a number of games under his belt now so we shouldnt be surprised if he has a good game. in fact we demand it at this stage in his progress. regrettably this hasnt always been the case. Some would also argue that Woodgate was lucky not to give a penno away and maybe should have done more with Nani. At the end of the day we should all rejoice and accept that away games have always tended to be more difficult than home ones. end of. It's not so much that Wilko had a good game, but more the difference that playing a proper right back makes to our play. We don't lose anything at the back (we're arguably better defensively as a result) and look a lot more fluid in attack. And good look to the lad but if you could say this is what happens every time Wilko plays then I would agree. Sadly it doesnt
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:23:04 GMT
Take the point about distribution but has it helped that much. Huth at right back is still a cause for concern despite the results and Woodgate has had some stellar games and some shockers. I don't see why it shouldn't be as simple as having Huth and Ryan as first choice and playing Woody and Upson in the cups and having them as excellent cover? i don't think it's quite that simple because Pulis has stated that it's the experience and vocal assets that both Woody and Upson have brought to the table which he is so impressed with. Huth had an amazing season last year and is a cracking defender. But there is a case that we are more composed with someone more experienced alongside Ryan. The better distribution also helps with that too. All of that said though, i do agree that we are better without Huth at right back. We have 4 excellent centre backs and it's a better problem to have than 4 poor ones. It still seems very much like trying to fix something that wasn't broken. We kept plenty of clean sheets last season. It wasn't an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:24:03 GMT
It's not so much that Wilko had a good game, but more the difference that playing a proper right back makes to our play. We don't lose anything at the back (we're arguably better defensively as a result) and look a lot more fluid in attack. And good look to the lad but if you could say this is what happens every time Wilko plays then I would agree. Sadly it doesnt I think it does far more often than when Huth plays there.
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Sept 25, 2011 20:25:51 GMT
i don't think it's quite that simple because Pulis has stated that it's the experience and vocal assets that both Woody and Upson have brought to the table which he is so impressed with. Huth had an amazing season last year and is a cracking defender. But there is a case that we are more composed with someone more experienced alongside Ryan. The better distribution also helps with that too. All of that said though, i do agree that we are better without Huth at right back. We have 4 excellent centre backs and it's a better problem to have than 4 poor ones. It still seems very much like trying to fix something that wasn't broken. We kept plenty of clean sheets last season. It wasn't an issue. But we have so far improved results wise have we not?
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Post by onionman on Sept 25, 2011 20:30:00 GMT
I read the thread. It read like you were so begrudging of Pulis you were trying to give him as little credit as possible for our brilliant start to the season. But you were happy to slate him by harking back to the only match out of 12 that hasn't gone very well this season. The whole tone across the message board is indeed extremely complimentary. To not be extremely complimentary about this start to the season, you'd need a real chip on your shoulder about something. The results in those 12 games were good but the performances flagged up plenty of flaws that came home to roost last weekend. Yesterday it looked as if the manager had recognised that and ironed it out. I don't always agree with Mark's stance on TP but I thought he was positive and very fair in his original post. It was the complaint that it's only one week since we had to suffer "standard away garbage" that got me. I know many of away performances have been horrible to watch over the years, particularly since we've been in the Prem, but to call the Sunderland game "standard away garbage" was completely misleading when you look at our 12 games as a whole this season and the circumstances of the lead-up to that game. Nothing about Stoke City this season (or indeed the past six months), including our away form, could be described as standard garbage by anyone who isn't desperately trying to find a stick to hit the manager with.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Sept 25, 2011 20:35:07 GMT
please list the shockers that Wilko has had.
We can perhaps then compare these to the absolute mares Collins has had yet continously got picked.
All Mark is saying, I think, is that when we give ourselves a shout at winning games we invariably play bloody well and lots better than when we don't.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Sept 25, 2011 20:37:53 GMT
I read the thread. It read like you were so begrudging of Pulis you were trying to give him as little credit as possible for our brilliant start to the season. But you were happy to slate him by harking back to the only match out of 12 that hasn't gone very well this season. The whole tone across the message board is indeed extremely complimentary. To not be extremely complimentary about this start to the season, you'd need a real chip on your shoulder about something. The give away is the fact that I start a thread listing the very things that thrilled me about yesterday. How can that not give the impression that I'm thrilled about it? I'm extra happy that the myths about us not being able to take on teams that way have been knocked into a cocked hat. I want to see more of the same. I'm not going to apologise for saying so. If you don't see any relevance in cross referencing the good with the not so good, fair enough but it's a mistake to assume that's slating anyone. It passes as normal analysis and discussion to me. I've got plenty of chips on my shoulders about plenty of shite I've been treated to over the last few decades of watching the club like many but I live for days like yesterday. It's what makes it worthwhile.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:37:53 GMT
It still seems very much like trying to fix something that wasn't broken. We kept plenty of clean sheets last season. It wasn't an issue. But we have so far improved results wise have we not? We've had a lot of luck though haven't we? Do you think we've looked better this season than the back end of last season?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:40:01 GMT
please list the shockers that Wilko has had. We can perhaps then compare these to the absolute mares Collins has had yet continously got picked. All Mark is saying, I think, is that when we give ourselves a shout at winning games we invariably play bloody well and lots better than when we don't. Wilko's had a few bunny just like all the players have but for me he looks less likely to commit stupid tackles and give away needless free kicks like he's been prone too in previous seasons.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Sept 25, 2011 20:41:52 GMT
Wow! You used "tone" and "complimentary" in the same sentence - well done....... ;D On a different note - Are these your shoes? I'm delighted you have progressed enough to take them both on board. Nah. Mine are a lot more pointy than that so give em back to your Mum like a good boy.
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Post by swampySCFC on Sept 25, 2011 20:43:09 GMT
But we have so far improved results wise have we not? We've had a lot of luck though haven't we? Do you think we've looked better this season than the back end of last season? We all need luck but we've played well overall and deserve our results.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 20:47:07 GMT
We've had a lot of luck though haven't we? Do you think we've looked better this season than the back end of last season? We all need luck but we've played well overall and deserve our results. Abolutely - but results at this stage of the season can be misleading, and in some games we perhaps haven't been as impressive as the results suggest. I don't think the team (yet) looks better than the end of last season and the defence certainly doesn't. Yesterday was far and away our best performance of the season and that owed a huge amount to having a balanced side with a proper right back in it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 25, 2011 20:52:41 GMT
Regarding the best centre half pairing debate. I agree that huth and ryan are probably best ob the face of it although it is very close. But pulis has said its the experience of upson and woody which is helping us so much. And their distribution helps too. It has definitely seemed less panicky there at times. Its not quite as simple as saying it should defo be huth and ryan. There is a bigger picture that you have to look at.I do agree regarding the fullback positions though and wilko for me has to be first choice right back. Surely though the bigger picture is where we're going to be in two, three, four and five years time. Hence why I asked the question earlier, who is likely to win the most MOTM awards at centre back over the next five years, Huth or Woodgate? Great centre back partnerships don't grow on trees and most managers in the Premiership would give their right arms to have Huth & Ryan available to them. Indeed when you factor in their ages, there's a very real argument that they have the potential to become the very best partnership out there and not for an unsubstantial period of time either. I don't see any evidence whatsoever, to suggest that we would have been worse off, if we'd stuck with what worked so well last season. There are two issues for me. 1. TP has created one helluva headache for himself, by now having to keep four first class centre backs sweet and the team imo is effected negatively, if he attempts to solve that headache by playing one of those players at full back. 2. Will Robert Huth put up with the hand he's currently been dealt ... he certainly seems to have drawn the short straw? If he won't, then I don't believe any perceived short term (of course they're never going to be long term) gains we see through having Woodgate or Upson here will compensate for losing Huth in January or next summer.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Sept 25, 2011 20:56:05 GMT
the only upside to this Paul is that christ, we are now talking of having 4 top class centre halfs at Stoke!!!!!
But like you, I worry about Huth going and think he will in JAnuary to any team with money, that will press the panic button and wants a centre half desperately they pay over the odds.
Owt under 10 million is a joke
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Post by onionman on Sept 25, 2011 21:00:52 GMT
I read the thread. It read like you were so begrudging of Pulis you were trying to give him as little credit as possible for our brilliant start to the season. But you were happy to slate him by harking back to the only match out of 12 that hasn't gone very well this season. The whole tone across the message board is indeed extremely complimentary. To not be extremely complimentary about this start to the season, you'd need a real chip on your shoulder about something. The give away is the fact that I start a thread listing the very things that thrilled me about yesterday. How can that not give the impression that I'm thrilled about it? I'm extra happy that the myths about us not being able to take on teams that way have been knocked into a cocked hat. I want to see more of the same. I'm not going to apologise for saying so. If you don't see any relevance in cross referencing the good with the not so good, fair enough but it's a mistake to assume that's slating anyone. It passes as normal analysis and discussion to me. I've got plenty of chips on my shoulders about plenty of shite I've been treated to over the last few decades of watching the club like many but I live for days like yesterday. It's what makes it worthwhile. Pulis makes mistakes and will continue to do so. There's no harm in saying that. Personally I think he was wrong to ever drop Wilko. It was probably a misguided effort to shoehorn as many of his superstar centre-backs into the team at once. But I think it's still possible to criticise some of Pulis' decisions in a sensible context without resorting to misleading claims like we've been having to put up with "standard away garbage". It did come across as though you were clutching at straws and desperately looking for something to be angry about. Apologies if you didn't mean that comment to come across the way I read it, but it did seem you were making out Pulis may have done well this week, but let's not forget how crap he was last week.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 25, 2011 21:06:04 GMT
the only upside to this Paul is that christ, we are now talking of having 4 top class centre halfs at Stoke!!!!! But like you, I worry about Huth going and think he will in JAnuary to any team with money, that will press the panic button and wants a centre half desperately they pay over the odds. Owt under 10 million is a joke Of course there's a potential downside as well bunny. I'd suggest it's virtually unheard of, for a Premiership manager to attempt to keep four first choice centre backs happy.
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