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Post by bettsy on Sept 5, 2011 6:40:09 GMT
So it comes down to who is the better player in a certain position: Woodgate is a better centre half than Huth and Shawcross Huth is arguably a better centre half than Shawcross but without doubt a better right back than Shawcross. Shawcross is a better centre half than Wilko. At this moment in time it comes down to Huth or Wilko for full back. Huth is the better footballer so he has to start. Crouch is a better striker than Walters and Jones will score more goals over a season than Walters so therefore Jones and Crouch should start. Huth is much better at centre half than Woody, however I agree with the rest.
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expat
Youth Player
Posts: 357
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Post by expat on Sept 5, 2011 7:05:04 GMT
Pulis likes a "chaser" up front. We've seen Fuller or Walters do this job before, not sure if KJ could do this, Crouch certainly not. That means we'll almost always see an 8million+ striker ready to come on and cause problems. I don't really have a problem with that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:32:18 GMT
Inevitably at some point Jones-Crouch will be the partnership for a run of games and we'll all go mad at how one-dimensional we are. Has to be better than Jones-Carew though. When Jones-Carew played together we were awful - but were we playing with two wingers at that point? If not that might have helped make the partnership worse. At that point matty and pennant were injured and neither had a good run of games. Jones and Carew are very similar. Jones and Crouch only have height as a similarity. Two completely different players, don't see why it couldn't become effective if they strike up a good relationship and learn how to feed off eachother. Perfect case scenario: 1. Big Hoof up to Crouch. Crouch brings it down and lays it off to Whelan, Jones starts a run. Whelan to Pennant who takes on the left back and sends in a perfect cross, Jones gets on the end of it and scores. From what I've read a lot of people are moaning about the downsides, not mobile etc, but Jones' workrate this reason is far better than last years. There's no reason why they can't learn to work together.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:35:38 GMT
Inevitably at some point Jones-Crouch will be the partnership for a run of games and we'll all go mad at how one-dimensional we are. Has to be better than Jones-Carew though. When Jones-Carew played together we were awful - but were we playing with two wingers at that point? If not that might have helped make the partnership worse. At that point matty and pennant were injured and neither had a good run of games. Jones and Carew are very similar. Jones and Crouch only have height as a similarity. Two completely different players, don't see why it couldn't become effective if they strike up a good relationship and learn how to feed off eachother. Perfect case scenario: 1. Big Hoof up to Crouch. Crouch brings it down and lays it off to Whelan, Jones starts a run. Whelan to Pennant who takes on the left back and sends in a perfect cross, Jones gets on the end of it and scores. From what I've read a lot of people are moaning about the downsides, not mobile etc, but Jones' workrate this reason is far better than last years. There's no reason why they can't learn to work together. Do you think Whelan's going to play much?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:35:48 GMT
Pulis likes a "chaser" up front. We've seen Fuller or Walters do this job before, not sure if KJ could do this, Crouch certainly not. That means we'll almost always see an 8million+ striker ready to come on and cause problems. I don't really have a problem with that. Just out of curiosity when have we seen Fuller be a chaser? It was always Mama, Beattie etc whilst Fuller stands around with the opposition in possession. If you are however on about chasing for a loose ball - if you can't see KJ chasing every ball kicked within a 20 yard radius of him you need to watch him in the game more.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:38:36 GMT
At that point matty and pennant were injured and neither had a good run of games. Jones and Carew are very similar. Jones and Crouch only have height as a similarity. Two completely different players, don't see why it couldn't become effective if they strike up a good relationship and learn how to feed off eachother. Perfect case scenario: 1. Big Hoof up to Crouch. Crouch brings it down and lays it off to Whelan, Jones starts a run. Whelan to Pennant who takes on the left back and sends in a perfect cross, Jones gets on the end of it and scores. From what I've read a lot of people are moaning about the downsides, not mobile etc, but Jones' workrate this reason is far better than last years. There's no reason why they can't learn to work together. Do you think Whelan's going to play much? Yeah, Palacios and Whelan will be the middle two in my opinion as the most balanced centre mid. Whelan's passing is far better than any of our other cm's not currently playing at fullback. He tries things that don't always come off but atleast he gives them ago - more than we can say for whitehead. Delap is 34 and been out for injury again, age is catching him - he won't be playing as big a part as previous season's in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:40:01 GMT
Pulis likes a "chaser" up front. We've seen Fuller or Walters do this job before, not sure if KJ could do this, Crouch certainly not. That means we'll almost always see an 8million+ striker ready to come on and cause problems. I don't really have a problem with that. Just out of curiosity when have we seen Fuller be a chaser? It was always Mama, Beattie etc whilst Fuller stands around with the opposition in possession. If you are however on about chasing for a loose ball - if you can't see KJ chasing every ball kicked within a 20 yard radius of him you need to watch him in the game more. Fuller chased everything in the final third. He scares the shit out of defenders. In the oppositions half, when we've got a break on, he's excellent.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:40:49 GMT
Do you think Whelan's going to play much? Yeah, Palacios and Whelan will be the middle two in my opinion as the most balanced centre mid. Whelan's passing is far better than any of our other cm's not currently playing at fullback. He tries things that don't always come off but atleast he gives them ago - more than we can say for whitehead. Delap is 34 and been out for injury again, age is catching him - he won't be playing as big a part as previous season's in my opinion. I agree it's the most balanced, but I don't see him dropping Delap. Not when we've just signed a 6"7 striker. Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's what he'll do
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:48:28 GMT
Just out of curiosity when have we seen Fuller be a chaser? It was always Mama, Beattie etc whilst Fuller stands around with the opposition in possession. If you are however on about chasing for a loose ball - if you can't see KJ chasing every ball kicked within a 20 yard radius of him you need to watch him in the game more. Fuller chased everything in the final third. He scares the shit out of defenders. In the oppositions half, when we've got a break on, he's excellent. I was talking about with the opposition in possession, but when he's not strolling back onside he wil chase a loose ball. I wouldn't say he scares the opposition as much anymore. I think we have bigger threats in the team now
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:50:08 GMT
Fuller chased everything in the final third. He scares the shit out of defenders. In the oppositions half, when we've got a break on, he's excellent. I was talking about with the opposition in possession, but when he's not strolling back onside he wil chase a loose ball. I wouldn't say he scares the opposition as much anymore. I think we have bigger threats in the team now I'm not writing him off yet. Probably shouldn't be starting these days but if he's the same player he was before his injury he's at the very least an important weapon off the bench.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:50:56 GMT
Yeah, Palacios and Whelan will be the middle two in my opinion as the most balanced centre mid. Whelan's passing is far better than any of our other cm's not currently playing at fullback. He tries things that don't always come off but atleast he gives them ago - more than we can say for whitehead. Delap is 34 and been out for injury again, age is catching him - he won't be playing as big a part as previous season's in my opinion. I agree it's the most balanced, but I don't see him dropping Delap. Not when we've just signed a 6"7 striker. Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's what he'll do If Delap can't keep up with the game and is often getting injured Pulis won't keep him on for his throw. Especially as it hasn't been as good as it used to be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 7:55:25 GMT
I agree it's the most balanced, but I don't see him dropping Delap. Not when we've just signed a 6"7 striker. Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's what he'll do If Delap can't keep up with the game and is often getting injured Pulis won't keep him on for his throw. Especially as it hasn't been as good as it used to be. To be fair he was excellent in the couple of games he played this season, against Split and before going off against Chelsea. I'd rather see Palacios and Wilson or Whelan, but we know TP has his preferences, hence Huth being shunted out to right back again. There's no way he won't pick Delap if he's fit imo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:02:55 GMT
If he's fit, I have no problem with a fit Delap playing. He's a good player despite his age. Personally I think it's more likely to be Delap and Whelan playing against Liverpool with Palacios getting a cameo to build up match fitness. If it does come to it, Whelan may play more away where we need a level head on the ball with Delap at home until Shotton is blooded into the team.
As for Huth, we've conceded 2 goals in 7 games and one of them was with Wilko at right back. The defence is solid at the moment and despite loving huth at centreback - if woodgate is fit I can't see the back 4 changing unless Huth gets dominated on a regular basis
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:06:00 GMT
If he's fit, I have no problem with a fit Delap playing. He's a good player despite his age. Personally I think it's more likely to be Delap and Whelan playing against Liverpool with Palacios getting a cameo to build up match fitness. If it does come to it, Whelan may play more away where we need a level head on the ball with Delap at home until Shotton is blooded into the team. As for Huth, we've conceded 2 goals in 7 games and one of them was with Wilko at right back. The defence is solid at the moment and despite loving huth at centreback - if woodgate is fit I can't see the back 4 changing unless Huth gets dominated on a regular basis Yeah, think you're probably right about Whelan/Delap or Whitehead against Liverpool. I thought the defence looked shaky at Norwich and WBA with Huth at right back. We only started defending well at West Brom when Wilko came on.
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expat
Youth Player
Posts: 357
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Post by expat on Sept 5, 2011 8:12:42 GMT
Just out of curiosity when have we seen Fuller be a chaser? It was always Mama, Beattie etc whilst Fuller stands around with the opposition in possession. If you are however on about chasing for a loose ball - if you can't see KJ chasing every ball kicked within a 20 yard radius of him you need to watch him in the game more. Fuller chased everything in the final third. He scares the shit out of defenders. In the oppositions half, when we've got a break on, he's excellent. Sorry lads, by "chaser" I meant when we're in possession (i.e. chasing long balls played into the channels).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:16:28 GMT
I don't think Whitehead's as good as either of Delap or whelan. It's no coincidence he plays best against teams when Delap is on. He reminds me of Wayne Thomas only in that, Thomas was poor when left on his own, but alongside a more experienced player who would tell him what to do all match he would have good games. Also Huth went to left back that match against west brom didn't he? So he still played at full back but we started to defend well. It again can't be a coincidence that the games you state are games we are away from home, where the opposition are on the front foot and because of our away recored our team must run low on confidence. It may be that we play huth at rb at home as there he is steady, but in away games we drop woodgate, put huth to cb and play wilko at rb. Also i don't know how upson fits in, it could be that he starts playing left back, which would be funny. Stoke fans are used to cb's playing rb, Upson was originally a left back who was converted to cb
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:18:56 GMT
I don't think Whitehead's as good as either of Delap or whelan. It's no coincidence he plays best against teams when Delap is on. He reminds me of Wayne Thomas only in that, Thomas was poor when left on his own, but alongside a more experienced player who would tell him what to do all match he would have good games. Also Huth went to left back that match against west brom didn't he? So he still played at full back but we started to defend well. It again can't be a coincidence that the games you state are games we are away from home, where the opposition are on the front foot and because of our away recored our team must run low on confidence. It may be that we play huth at rb at home as there he is steady, but in away games we drop woodgate, put huth to cb and play wilko at rb. Also i don't know how upson fits in, it could be that he starts playing left back, which would be funny. Stoke fans are used to cb's playing rb, Upson was originally a left back who was converted to cb For whatever reason, Huth looked more comfortable at left back than right back. Still wouldn't play him at full back though and don't agree he's "steady" there. He cost us plenty of goals there last season even at home. Not a fan of Whitehead either, but if Delap isn't fit and Palacios isn't fit then TP will play him.
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Post by Menorca Stokie on Sept 5, 2011 8:21:59 GMT
At the end of the day we are still not going to be able to play the likes of Man U, Chelsea or Arsenal off the park but with Jones, Crouch, Shawcross and Huth in the box at set pieces any defence in the land would be shaking like a shitting dog.Can't wait to get up and running!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:25:44 GMT
But again, youu could put that down to confidence, if he can't play there away from home but is told to, when he plays at home he will fill full of nerves. The two goals that spring to mid are spurs last season, but they were two against one of the best left wingers in the world. If Huth can play like he did against Chelsea at rb I see no reason for him not to be there as long as Woodgate continues to improve. But yeah what about Upson, where'd you think he fits into all this?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 8:30:37 GMT
We've spent almost 20 million on the pair, I think its fair to say they'll get game time together.
Lets give it a chance and see how they play together.
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Post by Olgrligm on Sept 5, 2011 9:03:43 GMT
I think what people are forgetting is that one of the most important jobs that Fuller did and that Walters does now is to win free kicks, corners and throw ins by putting the back line under pressure. It's all well and good saying we'll have two big players in the box to aim for, but who's going to get the set pieces?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 9:11:22 GMT
Perhaps the thinking is, as we spend more and more money on the squad, the quality will increase and we’ll actually be able to get the ball towards the oppositions final third more often through some decent play, instead of solely relying on a workhorse to chase long punts down and hassling defenders.
Maybe the likes of Ethers and Pennant, with the increased quality of Palacios in the middle, will be able to give KJ and Crouchie the service they need.
Just a thought.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 9:15:54 GMT
I think what people are forgetting is that one of the most important jobs that Fuller did and that Walters does now is to win free kicks, corners and throw ins by putting the back line under pressure. It's all well and good saying we'll have two big players in the box to aim for, but who's going to get the set pieces? How many times do big guys get free kicks, quite often when you think of the ball coming down to them, if the defender can't get round them they go through them, which often leads to a free kick. And our wingers are likely going to bring in throws and corners with how wide they like to drift.
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Post by sufolkstokie on Sept 5, 2011 9:17:18 GMT
If Mr P keeps to his normal modus operandi, KJ will most likely be on the bench given his international duties. Suspect we will start with Crouch and Waltersfor the next game.
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Post by Dave the Rave on Sept 5, 2011 12:15:56 GMT
Looks like Ric is targeting a November return plenty of games before then you did say if of course tbh I'm not unhappy if TP tries all the 4 out I'm not sure what Ric is targeting but I'm absolutely positive Tone is targeting a January departure for him. The manager wants him gone. Unsurprising really given his tenacity last year to throw TP's loyalty and faith back in his face by asking for so much money, and then trying to leave and get it elsewhere.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 5, 2011 12:19:47 GMT
Perhaps the thinking is, as we spend more and more money on the squad, the quality will increase and we’ll actually be able to get the ball towards the oppositions final third more often through some decent play, instead of solely relying on a workhorse to chase long punts down and hassling defenders. Maybe the likes of Ethers and Pennant, with the increased quality of Palacios in the middle, will be able to give KJ and Crouchie the service they need. Just a thought. We thought that (minus Palacios) when Carew and KJ was mooted. It didn't happen and we used the wingers even less due to the negative, dire football on display. Hope he's learnt from that though.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Sept 5, 2011 12:47:34 GMT
We've spent almost 20 million on the pair, I think its fair to say they'll get game time together. Lets give it a chance and see how they play together. Good post.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 12:51:40 GMT
Perhaps the thinking is, as we spend more and more money on the squad, the quality will increase and we’ll actually be able to get the ball towards the oppositions final third more often through some decent play, instead of solely relying on a workhorse to chase long punts down and hassling defenders. Maybe the likes of Ethers and Pennant, with the increased quality of Palacios in the middle, will be able to give KJ and Crouchie the service they need. Just a thought. We thought that (minus Palacios) when Carew and KJ was mooted. It didn't happen and we used the wingers even less due to the negative, dire football on display. Hope he's learnt from that though. I'm not going to compare Carew to Crouch. One is arguably past his best and his dropping down the leagues already, the other is an England international with a great record and still with good years ahead of him. You can't use Carew as a yardstick for Crouch. You certainly can't use it as a reason not to give KJ and Crouch at least a chance together.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 5, 2011 13:04:50 GMT
Of course You can, similar players and similar ages and both will be used in the same way I would of thought.
Carew is probably the better player over the years as well.
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maxs
Lads'n'Dads
Posts: 96
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Post by maxs on Sept 5, 2011 13:04:55 GMT
huth, woodgate, shawcross and upson defence.
cruch and jones attack.
try marking them at corners!
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