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 Author | Topic: Section 27 "victims" - what to do (Read 18,563 times) |
Malcolm Clarke
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|  | Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Thread Started on Nov 19, 2008, 12:59pm » | |
I hope I don't get "wheeled" for starting a new thread but there is a danger this might get lost in the very long Irlam thread. Also, there are some Stokies who have similar cause for complaint over what happened on the day of the Man City game.
If you had a Section 27 order served on you, and had no intention of engaging in alcohol-related disorder and gave the police no reason to believe that you would engage in such disorder - it is very important that you lodge a formal complaint.
Warning - do not say anything which you do not know to be true, and only say things which you are comfortable in saying. Certainly don't include anything just because I'm suggesting it.
The FSF advises you to do the following
1. Lodge a formal complaint with Greater Manchester Police, either by letter to The Chief Constable, Greater Manchester Police, PO Box 22, Manchester M16 0RE
or via their website
www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/complaints.htm
2. Also complain to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, 90 High Holborn, London WC1V 6BH or via their website
www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints
3. Also complain to your MP either by writing to the House of Commons or via their website (there is a site called theyworkforyou which both tells you who your MP is and gives contact details).
Points to stress
1. That there was no disorder in the pub in Irlam prior to the police arrival
2. That you did not engage in any behaviour which gave the police grounds for believing that you might engage in disorder
3. (if it's true) that you hold a Stoke Away card for which you have been vetted by the police and (if it's true) that you do not have a criminal record for any football-related disorder.
4. That, under threat of arrest, you were required to sign a form which contains statements which were untrue ( you have a copy of this form - read it and make sure you are comfortable with the above statement)
5. That the way you were treated and spoken to was unsatisfactory (this will vary from person to person - respond only according to your own experience, quoting what was said and done in detail).
Ask for
1. An apology
2. Financial compensation for the cost of the match ticket
3. An assurance that the section 27 form which they hold will be destroyed and that no record will be kept of your involvement with this incident.
It would be helpful to send the FSF a copy. Send to malcolm.clarke@fsf.org.uk;
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #1 on Nov 19, 2008, 1:11pm » | |
No danger of being wheeled Malcolm. In fact, I'll pin it at the top of the board.
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mcf
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #2 on Nov 19, 2008, 1:37pm » | |
Good to see that at least one of the PHW Admin has a clue at how to moderate the board.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #3 on Nov 19, 2008, 1:41pm » | |
Yes, and I still have the power to ban anybody who has the temerity to call ME a Pulis Hating Wankstain. 
The cheek of it. 
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Lightwood
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #4 on Nov 19, 2008, 1:48pm » | |
Malcolm,
It might be worth posting this on the BBC 606 forum to see if this is a common problem experienced by other supporters or if it's just Stoke fans that are being 'targetted'.
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Lakeland Potter
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #5 on Nov 19, 2008, 2:51pm » | |
Malcolm, as well as claiming compensation for the cost of the match ticket, wouldn't it be reasonable for anyone who doesn't actually live in North Staffs to also claim costs involved in getting from SOT either to their home or to their car if it was left in whichever place the Section 27 order was issued? I realise that this may not have been the case in the Irlam incident but in other incidents it is possible that some Stokies might be "bussed" to Stoke when, like me, they would actually have travelled from somewhere different entirely (in my case the Lake District).
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #6 on Nov 19, 2008, 3:25pm » | |
Why are the GMP such twats?
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Malcolm Clarke
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #7 on Nov 19, 2008, 4:01pm » | |
John - yes, I agree. I think my list of requests should be regarded as a minimum, and if there were any other costs incurred, then by all means claim those as well.
I have heard that some people had cars left at Irlam but were required to return by coach, but I haven't actually spoken to anyone in that position myself. Can anyone definitely confirm this ?
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #8 on Nov 19, 2008, 5:37pm » | |
Malcolm Clarke you should be lauded by your fellow fans for the effort you're putting in regarding this matter.
Leaving aside the differences of opinion between Man Utd and Stoke fans, this section 27 could and probably will effect all match going football supporters.
I saw this issue posted and have followed it, as although I honestly don't give much of a fig for Stokes fan's - they're neither my problem or my business, there's little doubt that what happens to one set of fans can easily be adopted as 'standard practice' by different police forces.
Therefore the onus is on fans directly affected to make life as difficult as possible for those who seek to impose section 27 on them, thus causing the police to think twice in future.
The idea that a British citizen doing no harm to anyone, provoking nothing, planning nothing and not drunk can simply be moved to another part of the country is a disgrace. To be under threat of arrest if he /she decines to sign the document (a breach of Human Rights surely; how can a refusal to accept an order for which a person has not been convicted be classed as another criminal act in itself?) is a scandal.
This post is nothing to do with ingratiating myself on here, as already said we're from different sides so there's no mileage in that at all, it's to give your fella a bit of moral support.
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Gods
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #9 on Nov 19, 2008, 6:06pm » | |
Just out of curiosity is there any possibility that someone (the GMP?) will actually stump up cash for those affected or is it more a case of putting a stake in the ground so to speak?
I was drinking (peacefully) in Manchester Town Centre prior to the match since we were able to blag our way in to a Pub right by the station. Had we all been summarily bussed back to Stoke prior to the game there simply wouldn't be words to describe how pissed off I would have been!
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Lakeland Potter
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #10 on Nov 19, 2008, 7:02pm » | |
I'd say that if the Chief Constable (unlikely) or the Police Complaints Authority (possibly more likely) decided that Section 27 had been wrongly used then the Police would be liable to compensate the "victims" for reasonable money lost as a result of Police action. Of course, what is obvious to us may not be obvious to someone reviewing the Police action. 
Still nowt is lost by trying.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #11 on Nov 19, 2008, 7:14pm » | |
It started in crewe?
Football cops’ job is to keep the terraces safe in Southend
10:20pm Monday 10th November 2008
Comments (0) Have your say »
SUPPORTING Southend United has become a family pastime, with little evidence of the football hooliganism of the 1980s.
But behind every game a lot of work goes in from Essex Police and the club to keep it this way and ensure supporters get to and from the ground safely.
For every match, police rank the level of risk and use their resources accordingly. All matches are given a category rating, ranging from A, for low risk disorder, through to CR for very high risk.
In Southend, the highest category games include matches against Leyton Orient, Millwall, Colchester and Leeds, which require more than 100 police officers to police the game.
An initial intelligence document is drawn up weeks before the match, with a final draft completed two or three days before and a briefing on the day.
The police also have a new tactic in the form of section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, which has come into force.
It means if someone is behaving antisocially the police can issue them with an order to leave the area for a set period of time or face arrest.
Det Insp Dick Spooner is Southend’s football intelligence officer, responsible for ensuring the thousands of fans for both home and away matches enjoy the games safely.
He said “We first saw the section 27 order used at Crewe where Southend were away this season.
“We had a group of individuals who were hellbent on having a little bit of disorder.
“They’d been in the pub all morning and they gave us the run around town.
“Then the risk group from Crewe appeared and the two groups were making moves to have disorder.
“The person in charge in Crewe said we would do a section 27 on the group so they were put on the train and never got to the match.”
For matches at Roots Hall, police all converge in a lecture hall almost four hours before the game to be given intelligence.
Mr Spooner said his position as football intelligence officer is a role that exists in every police force which has a football club in its patch, following the disorder in the Seventies and Eighties.
He attends each game with a team of uniformed spotters who keep an eye on the crowd.
He said: “It’s all about getting people into the football safely.
“If we’ve got an atmosphere which is nice we will encourage them to bring their children.
“I always talk to the children and so do my spotters.”
For Mr Spooner, the football season starts in June when the fixtures come out.
“He then liaises with officers at other clubs to set the categories for matches based on history and new intelligence. This includes information about risk groups that have emerged and how the club is performing.”
During a recent home game, a group of Blues supporters started edging into a line of seats kept empty between them and the away fans, and the stewards are immediately sent to form a line and urge them back.
The only other incident was at half-time, when fans started throwing hot dogs over a wall at each other. The stewards moved in and the problem was resolved.
Mr Spooner said most people are genuine supporters and not out to cause trouble, as was shown during last season’s play-offs in Doncaster.
He said: “We were 4-0 down and 2,000 people decided to have a party and for 25 minutes they sang and did the conga.
“Around 3,000 Doncaster supporters came on the pitch and applauded them. It wasn’t a good day on the field, but those supporters were fantastic. I can only say they were a very good advert for this town.”
However, if there is a major problem, police support units made up of 21 PCs and three sergeants, are sent in, for which the police charge a fee to the club.
They can also apply to the courts for a banning order on anyone who repeatedly causes trouble.
Chief Insp John Walker, of Southend police, takes a particular interest as he used to play for the Blues.
He was signed straight from school in 1976, staying until 1983 and playing against Liverpool at An-field in the FA Cup in 1979.
Now he often takes the role of Bronze One Commander, in charge of everything that goes on within the grounds during a match.
He said: “At the end of the day we want to get this game finished in the best possible way and get everyone home safely.
“Years ago people didn’t used to think about that. Everyone used to turn up, the ref would blow his whistle and that was it.”
Dave Jobson has been club safety officer and stadium manager for the past 17 years and the club has a team of stewards trained to NVQ level 2.
However, they also have an extremely good relationship with the police and work with them to curb problems. He said: “I love it. I prefer match day to any other day of the week.”
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/3829748.....fe_in_Southend/
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #12 on Nov 19, 2008, 8:30pm » | |
Heard it before but no harm repeating a classic
Police Intelligence = oxymoron
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daverichards
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #13 on Nov 19, 2008, 9:03pm » | |
what may have been missed in the 5 page thread was the link i posted about a bunch of protesters who this happened to (not a section 27) but a previous law , and their fight for justice over it . I understand some of you may fail to see the relevance of protesters , but the principle is the same, it was a legal protest and the police ilegally stopped them from attending
http://www.fairfordcoachaction.org.uk/index.html
i was pointed in the direction of this by Mark Thomas who i emailed the details of this situation to
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #14 on Nov 19, 2008, 9:58pm » | |
I was involved in a similar incident a few years back during a May Day march through London(I googled it, it was 2001). Thousands of people (some of whom were not even taking part in the march)were hemmed in to an area of Oxford Street at about 3p.m and kept prisoner for the whole day by police and only let out from the area at around 10p.m and you had to identify yourself in order to leave! During this time there was no access to food or drink or toilet facilities (apart from pissing on McDonalds windows haha). Strangely enough this illegal action went staggeringly under-reported by the press. Though I sympathise massively with people who were mal-treated by the GMP the prospects of anything changing are unfortunately slim.
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Malcolm Clarke
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Lakeland Potter
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #16 on Nov 19, 2008, 10:25pm » | |
Just done a bit of proof reading for you Malcolm. In the FSF report you say .... "Stoke City fan Lyndon Edwards, who is making a formal police to GMP and the Independent Police Complaints Commission"
Obviously the word police should be replaced by the word complaint.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #17 on Nov 19, 2008, 10:28pm » | |
Nov 19, 2008, 10:00pm, Malcolm Clarke wrote:
Malcolm, is there anything that we who weren't involved can do? Is there a petition or campaign we can join? I feel very strongly about this.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #19 on Nov 19, 2008, 11:14pm » | |
Section 27,
Keeping us in our place,
Reminding us of who's in control and who they are there for.
Abusing and twisting a badly thought out, or perhaps politically designed law.
Assuming guilt and serving punishment.
At random, on a whim.
Perfect for Stoke fans.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #20 on Nov 19, 2008, 11:53pm » | |
This is absolutely disgusting. As a (mediocre) student of history this sort of law is eerily reminiscent of the kind of power exercised in Nazi Germany in the 30s and 40s.
I would be really interested in seeing a copy of an order given to someone in Irlam, as from what I've read on here so far it seems the Police failed to follow several points of procedure when issuing these orders. If someone has one, PM me and I will send you my email so you can send me a scan. I think the GMP should be held to account for this - and I have so much free time on my hands at the moment this is a worthy project to add to my list.
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Malcolm Clarke
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #21 on Nov 19, 2008, 11:55pm » | |
Huddy - we'll see how it develops. But if nothing else, joining the FSF helps - the bigger we are, the stronger we are. You can join on-line, and it's worth it just for the magazine !
www.fsf.org.uk
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #22 on Nov 20, 2008, 12:08am » | |
Malcolm
Another line of thought, would the Freedom of Information Act provide some details of the number of Section 27's issued by the GMP be useful. They have to respond within a strict amount of time and as 27's are recorded and should be readily available.
I would ask for time, date, venue, issuing officer and senior officer responsible. Shouldn't be beyond the FoI remit.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #23 on Nov 20, 2008, 12:47am » | |
Nov 19, 2008, 11:55pm, Malcolm Clarke wrote:Huddy - we'll see how it develops. But if nothing else, joining the FSF helps - the bigger we are, the stronger we are. You can join on-line, and it's worth it just for the magazine !
www.fsf.org.uk
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Have had a look and yes, I will join. I would urge everyone else to do so, untited (pardon the pun) we are stronger!
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #24 on Nov 20, 2008, 10:19am » | |
I like the idea that Stoke fans might are able to detain members of the police if they suspect the officers behavior might lead to a "breach of the peace". I agree that the degredation of our civil rights, which I suppose I really started to notice during the Miners Strike, seem t be getting to endemic proportions. No doubt "law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about etc etc"
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #25 on Nov 20, 2008, 3:39pm » | |
Dr Moorlander is strangely quiet on this issue !
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #26 on Nov 20, 2008, 11:33pm » | |
The laws that have been passed over the last few years really are quite frightening and staggering, I didn't even know this one existed, ... it seems Police can legally kidnap you on the basis that they think you *might* do something ... as I said in another thread, this is the trickle down thats happened, this is no different to our foreign policy, where we now use the "preemptive/Preventative" policy, based upon what our government thinks another country may or may not do, it's trickled down into domestic policy. Quite a eye opener.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #27 on Nov 21, 2008, 8:31am » | |
wasnt at irlam . but had section 27 at man city . was nothing short of draconian the way we were treated . i will neva go to a n away game in nw till this facist measure is withdrawn . a friend who was at irlam said a copper said dont get a ticket for blackburn the same will happen then ! ffs .
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #28 on Nov 21, 2008, 11:44am » | |
It is utterly unbelievable what happened. I will be taking it as far as i can. No way i am letting this drop until i can go no further.
Anyone remember who the coach firm were that took us back to Stoke? Those that were there obviously.
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| | Re: Section 27 "victims" - what to do
« Reply #29 on Nov 21, 2008, 12:14pm » | |
Good work Malcolm!
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